Game Mechanics, feedback and suggestions - Build 50384
Xylvion last edited by
This is mostly what I think about the mechanics and how they can be improved, a lot of it will probably come off as negative feedback, but I don’t really have to mention the good bits, now do I?
If people want to discuss the topics or come up with their own suggestions, feel free to do so, it would be really nice knowing which direction you all want this game to take.
Block strength(Stamina) and Parry.
Frankly, I think block strength is ridicolous. I talked to Vesros about it and he said that it would most likely merge with stamina later on, which is fine… Except that you get punished for parrying, one of the faults in CMW. If you manage to parry, you shouldn’t be punished for it by getting stunned or taking damage, it should be a parry. Block strength was a good idea with the held parries, but as held parries was a bad idea it means block strength is too. The Vigilist has a shield that can be held atm, I think it should just be a parry.
Now what could the stamina be used for and how can it punish you?
- Missing attacks, when you miss an attack in melee, you should be punished for it.
- Jumps/dodges, it’s a move which could use up some stamina, which means you can’t do it when you’ve got none.
- Feints. This is a bit of a tough decision due to things like CFtP requiring you to feint, but I’ll mention this later on.
- Not being able to combo, it’s quite a large penalty as you wouldn’t be able to CFtP, or even combo parry (if that will be a thing again).
- Not being able to jump, because dodges.
- Not being able to feint.
- Not being able to riposte*. Now this can be a problem, but I think it’s fair, if you’re careless with your stamina you should be punished for it.
- Increase windup of attacks/abilities when on very low stamina. Just an idea, it would have to be tested though.
TL;DR - Never punish parries, instead weaken the character in other aspects with poor management of “block strength.”
Having drags and attacks of different kinds are key to a game with melee focus, yes there are spells in the game, but they are more of a side thing. As of right now I’m not impressed with the melee system of this game, mostly because of the lack of impact when hit or when hitting someone, there’s no weight behind it. I really enjoy the idea of removing backswings, sadly they seem to work at times though, although very hard to actually manage them so it’s not worth doing.
At the moment there are “3+2” attacks overhead, slash, stab, with underhand+backhand slash. This works, but I find it rather annoying having to do an underhand slash after my overhead one, instead I would prefer a 4+4 system of attacks, basically 4 types of attacks with their alternative counterparts.
- Slash (LMB):
This would be the regular lmb attack and the counterpart, aka the backhand slash.
- Overhead (Scroll down):
The regular overhead and, similar to CMW, another overhead from the other direction.
- Underhand (Mouse4, or MMB):
The new attack typemore or less, having attacks from below originating from different positions, basically opposite of the 2 overhead attacks.
- Stab (Scroll up):
This would, instead of how it works right now, have stabs originating from different locations.
Why This would be helpful? it would add 3 additional ways of attacking as compared to CMW, it would also add other ways to attack the opponent and to defend.
Attacks should be serversided instead of client sided. This would most likely make most people with packetloss less desynced, it would also allow for slightly higher ping players to be less laggy and therefor more reliable to parry. It would make attacking slightly less exact, but I think it’d be better to have reliable parries at all times, especially in a melee game with competetive focus.
Drags are really iffy without torso movement. In CMW you not only had the indication of where the sword was, you also knew how the attack would hit you based on the movement of the enemies torso, I believe this is one of the reasons why combat feels so stale atm. You would obviously require the torso to bend a lot less backward than in CMW, although forward could still be a bit over the top as a mean to avoid attacks.
You can combo the same attack over and over and over again, not really like it matters, but I can imagine the lmb spam being annoying on pub servers.
Divide release into different stages to make flinches less jerky and gambles punishable. I’ve touched on this in another thread, but basically having early/mid/late release or early/late release.
Early/Mid/Late, would be: nodamage flinchable/damage flinchable/ damage unflinchable.
Early/Late, would be: damage flinchable/damage unflinchable
The one with 3 stages would obviously be better as it would more or less prevent backswings by itself and also early handle hits and other weird happenings.
Feints (+ “new” mechanic)
Feints can be used for both offense and defence, right now they are jittery, especially combo feints, but that’s to be expected as the game is still in alpha. Now there is also the issue of sound playing even if you feint as well, but I hope that gets fixed.
The ability to spam 3 feints in a row in CMW is dumb, doing a double feint should be enough, that could be for first defence, then offesnse or because your opponent read the first feint. But being able to feint 5 times in a row is just stupid.
Needs to be possible to rebind to another key, especially with the queued FtP if you hold down rmb for half a second.
A new mechanic would basically be an “instant FtP” from the attack, it could be something that you could use even later than you can feint, ie during the whole windup. Unlike the regular FtP you would not feint, but instead go directly into parry, similar to how you can bind it in CMW. This can obviously be punished, but would help in 1vX situations. This could be bound to RMB by default.
Jump/dodges/ledge climbs and Footwork/sprint speed.
I love the idea of all of this, the dodges right now seem balanced, they’re not going too far back or to the sides, and every class (except alchemancer) can dodge unlike in CMW, they also got some cooldown so you can’t really spam them. Jumps and ledge climbs are fine, but I would love to see this improved with other mechanics as well. There’s already been mentions of wall jumping, which I would love to see, it would bring new elements into the game and could lead to really cool map areas where you have to wall jump or use abilities to get to. I would love to see horizontal wall running, it may be a bit over the top, but I think more footwork options are better. @Vesros told me about sliding as well, similar to the Vypress’ “slide kick”, I’m not sure about this, as it seems a bit strange to have your enemies hitbox suddenly lay flat on the ground.
Right now most sprints look ridicolous, the Alchemancer is perfect though. The footspeed itself could use a slight boost, perhaps by 5%ish, but this would obviously have to be tested more. Can’t really add that much more to it, it’s footwork and it seems to work just fine. Crouches on the other hand hardly seem useful as of right now, but perhaps with slight torso movement they would serve a purpose.
Right now a lot of them have really long cooldowns, which is both good and bad, I can imagine them cluttering the screens of people with their particle effects and what not, and it can get really messy in a 6v6 when projectiles and magic is being thrown all over the place. There are a few things I dislike with the cooldowns however, for example when you die and you still have 20 seconds cooldown on an ability, that’s just stupid, should be reset on death; it should also be reset once the warmup is over, sure the cooldowns are on 50% during the warmup, but iron dome still takes a long time to reset.
The transition when you combo with abilities is sluggish and not as fluent as it should be.
Tere needs to be a significant difference between windup and release of the abilities so you can actually cancel them. Imagine starting a rock throw against an opponent, just to notice a second opponent firing off a projectile at you, you can’t do anything to defend against the incoming projectile and have to take the damage and punishment on the ability cooldown. So basically, feints for abilities.
Now ripostes feel a bit iffy after having parried certain attacks. For example having parried whirlwind and I decide to riposte, the taurant that used whirlwind can most of the time hit their next attack in the combo before I can get a riposte off on them. It might be understandable as the person has no control as they whirl around, but it’s still annoying.
If I parry a shuriken and decide to riposte a ranged attack back at the vypress, say using rock throw, she can throw another shuriken at me before I’m even able to start my ability. The same goes after parrying an alchemancers LMB spam attack. It’s simply anti-fun.
So I’ve got this bad habit of hitting my own rock as the taurant with an lmb attack, and thinking to myself, how cool would it be if it actually sent the projectile flying back in the direction it came from?
Now this would mean that you’d have to hit a projectile to send it back, or heck, just throwing it off course would be quite neat. So if you parry it, it deals no damage to you, but if you hit it, you may have a chance of it going back towards your enemy, and so a tennis match of projectiles could break out. This would obviously mean that projectiles could intercept other projectiles/abilities as well, perhaps two fireballs colliding creating an explosion, or two rocks colliding causing them to just drop straight down etc.
I may have missed something, if so I will add it in a separate section at the end of the OP.
MrGrumps last edited by
Regarding ledgeclimb and wallrunning - I think horizontal running is fine as it’s maneuvering around the same space, but ledge climbing should be just a bit slower so that it’s punishable if you do it mid-fight. It shouldn’t be a lot slower, just around 10-20% or so. Needs experimenting.
This would make climbing in its own a tactical decision instead of just running away. You’ll need to distract your enemy before you climb so that he won’t punish you. This’ll also give greater meaning to phasing/using abilities to get to higher ground instead of climbing.
Gauntlet last edited by
@MrGrumps I see where you’re coming from when you say this, but slowing down movement abilities will give unnecessary weight to the movement system. Currently the slowness of the game has been a common criticism from viewers of early Mirage gameplay, and for some testers as well. I think it’s important to address these concerns before acting on slowing aspects of the movement system.
gregcau last edited by
I agree regarding block strength and parry, it is very disillusioning to see the blue bar drop so quickly when you have done a successful parry. Not to mention against multiple opponents you are screwed. Also stamina was important in CMW duels - I dont think a duel mode would even make sense here, would seem out of place and require too much balancing (I like how the Vigilist is all about team defense and Alchemancer is poor in close combat).
I assume “held parry” is no more (perhaps getting rid of that blue semi-circle).
I think some stamina drain due to parry is ok in some scenarios such as Tinker blocking the Taurant or anyone blocking the boulder throw.
Stamina punishments, couple more:
- Not being able to sprint would be very effective and realistic
- Reducing speed of health recovery if low (full stamina perhaps a little faster)
I’m not a fan of using MMB for anything - some mice may not have it, many mice it will be press down on the scroll but so it would often do a stab instead. I agree the underhand overheads are annoying, mostly because you didnt ask for an alternate attack, the taurant just decided to do that when you do two overheads in a row. It would be like doing two stabs in the a row and suddenly the second stab decide to do something completely different.
For drags certainly CMW torso is unrealistic and the overhead can start very low and end up at the head
The Mirage overhead I cant seem to do a ROH at all, I even see the red tracers passing through the opponent
Not really sure what the answer is.
One thing that is a big change that you didnt talk about. In CMW lets say two stationary knights face to face as close as can be. Maul overhead, you parry, you are knocked back a little. But you are still in range - you can stab/overhead without having to move. With Mirage after the same scenario with Taurant you are parry knocked back out of range, so you have to constantly be pressing forward. I assume this has a big effect of ripostes and obviously footwork. Is this a good thing?
I dont think the cooldown should be reset on death (alchemancer could run in pop his two big hitters, suicide and boom its back), there should be a penalty for dying. I think the issue is that the respawn time should be counted towards the cooldown time, right now it is not so you can be waiting 15 seconds to respawn and none of those 15 seconds counted towards your cooldown. After warmup all abilities should be on full (i.e. 3 shuriken, 3 mines etc).
Also I dont think random respawn 1-16 seconds is required for this game, kind of annoying if you wanted to change your class and missed the chance or if you have to wait a long time. A static amount of seconds would be more satisfying.
ToLazy4Name last edited by
“Drags are really iffy without torso movement. In CMW you not only had the indication of where the sword was, you also knew how the attack would hit you based on the movement of the enemies torso, I believe this is one of the reasons why combat feels so stale atm. You would obviously require the torso to bend a lot less backward than in CMW, although forward could still be a bit over the top as a mean to avoid attacks.”
Absolutely agree with this. Drags in their current form aren’t exactly effective, but if they’re ever made more effective then the game will almost NEED torso movement.