Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11



  • After having played the new build and discussed with Keyes and Lazy a bit, I have decided to make another post.

    I think the game is in the right direction now that some changes were made to parrying and such but my biggest gripe is that the melee combat still feels horrible. The lack of a stamina system is kinda nuts as you aren’t punished for being able to spam attacks and even spam feints. The parry system still feels extremely clunky and not responsive when you compare it to the C:MW parry system. The weapon timings between classes are very extreme with the Vypress having some extremely fast attacks and the Taurant having some that seem too slow.

    The combination of all these things makes for a very non-fluent melee combat experience that seems like you get rewarded for spamming attacks and it just feels bad man. If the melee combat could be made to act like the melee combat of C:MW it would be an insanely fun and engaging game but as it stands its very dull and not enjoyable to play as the melee is at least 50% of the game.

    Keyes also brought a broken mechanic to my attention which him and I tested. I wont go into too much detail on it as I’m sure he will make a post or reach out to the devs. But its the fact that you can interrupt/flinch a combo’ed attack of another player. This is absolutely unacceptable as it just leads to players spamming attacks trying to interrupt eachother instead of having an engaging back-and-forth style combat that is satisfying combat for both players.

    All this being said the magic element of the game is very fun and I cant wait to see and use the new abilities being developed.

    If a dev or somebody doesnt comment on this Im gonna shoot myself cause the last post(http://forums.tornbanner.com/topic/23333/first-impressions-suggestions-ideas-wi11) I made which went over a lot of stuff didnt get a single comment. It feels bad giving this kind of feedback for it to go unnoticed/not responded to by the devs especially considering this is an alpha. I’m grateful to be part of this alpha but If I’m here to give feedback I would atleast like it to be a two-way discussion and not just me ranting to a dev team that doesnt care about what I say.



  • @Wii-Eleven Thanks for the feedback.

    Even if we don’t comment, we still read the feedback posts, so please don’t feel like we’re ignoring you.

    Keyes showed me the interrupt issue this morning and I’ve passed the info onto @Vesros and will show him when he gets back into the office.

    A stamina system is in the works but just isn’t in there yet.


  • Developer

    Can you be more specific in terms of what you find clunky about the parry mechanic? Is it the timings of the animations or size of the parrybox?

    Other than lack of stamina (which is being addressed) do you feel anything else promotes spam?



  • @Tibberius Gotta agree with Will, combat does feel clunky (especially the parries). The feint window is EXTREMELY short compared to, say, Chivalry, and it makes it damn near impossible unless you want to microfeint (which is no fun). The parrybox does feel a bit questionable at times, as in I can parry a strike aimed directly at me but my blocks are constantly hit over and under where they would normally be met with success. Furthermore, there seems to be a small gap before when you cancel an attack and parry; roughly a bit under a second. It makes CFTP extremely difficult to pull off, which is quite inconvenient. That’s all I have for now, though; duty calls.



  • @Tibberius I don’t find parrying itself bad, I find feint to parry and combo feint to parry unresponsive when compared to Chivalry.



  • Feint to parry is super bad. It’s clunky, plus there’s the whole deal with holding down RMB automatically brings you into feint to parry. This leads to alot of unintentional FTPs when you’re just trying to feint your attack.

    On that topic, first person animations are pretty bad, especially when combined with feinting. Feinting your weapon in first person looks god awful.


  • Developer

    Feinting is something we have put zero effort into making look/feel reasonable so far, will be given some attention in the next few weeks.

    Active parry window longer in next build.

    One of the biggest differences with parrying from chiv currently is that the parrybox immediately parries in mirage, in Chiv you had to land what would have been a damage dealing hit before being parried. We are going to flip back and forth between these to see what will work well.



  • @Tibberius
    Active parry window longer in next build.

    How long was the parry window in chiv compared to now? And what’s the proposed change?

    Also, when will Q be able to be bound for feint :( I cant fight properly without it



  • @ChuckingIt said in Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11:

    @Tibberius
    Active parry window longer in next build.

    How long was the parry window in chiv compared to now? And what’s the proposed change?

    Also, when will Q be able to be bound for feint :( I cant fight properly without it

    parry window

    My first impression has been Mirage is very generous with how long the parry stays up, so many times I felt I parried “early” and it still stopped the skill or attack.

    CMW lets say you are facing an opponent like below (on a LAN), if you parry like this and they do an overhead (without any lookdown).

    • If you parry as soon as they move it will be too early
    • you have to wait until the sword is perhaps 25% of the way through the swing before starting your parry.
      0_1461855841300_Untitled.png
    • when you do parry it is a beautiful sword on sword clash

    Mirage, again on the LAN, same scenario with Taurant
    – I was surprised it is actually very comparable, you cant parry too early, you need to parry after they have got going a bit.

    • I think what i was seeing was skills I didnt really know when to parry and so parrying early just worked out
    • I certainly wouldn’t want to be holding up a parry for longer

    fluidity

    • CMW the weapon is held behind them, so the weapon doesnt have to travel very far to start the swing.
    • Mirage it is held in front so there is a bit of a jerky snapping action to get into overhead position
    • Because of that smaller distance CMW windup is very smooth and natural to watch
    • It also becomes much more obvious whether they are doing an overhead or horizontal swing
    • That smooth windup is then followed up with a faster snappy release as mentioned by others to give weight
    • When leaning back CMW you have a nice torso movement telegraphing the direction the attack will come from
    • Mirage leanback is only head movement and it does look unnatural and it becomes very difficult to see what they are doing

    Torso movement

    The reverse overheads no doubt became a bit of a blight on CMW, they had been around for a long time, everyone used them to hit the dark forest doors but only in the last 3-4 months would I say they became the norm for vanguards with long weapons in pub play and while I dont mind something that opens options to get past parry it is poor to look at.

    • I’m not sure if the lack of torso movement is to handle that one issue, I hope not its more important to make everything look good
    • Torso movement has other non combative uses - look at all the videos made for CMW
    • I think lean back lean forward is needed, just not to the extreme of CMW (say 45 degrees)
    • I think if the ROH is used just make it not a viable tactic e.g.
      – reduce damage from that early part of the tracer
      – slow the weapon if it hits something
      – reduce the turn speed when you hit more than 90 degrees - eliminate the spinning top people do with high mouse sensitivity


  • Torso movement is very much needed. If we were able to control our player’s wrists, elbows, shoulders, hips and back then maybe we wouldn’t need to just raw torso movement. But since we can’t do all those thing, torso movement allows us more freedom in a current generation constraint of controls.

    Taking away things that made chiv not “look so realistic” is only lowering skill cap and restricting creativity. Currently I feel like I’m playing skyrim more than chiv in melee.



  • @gregcau said in Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11:

    • I think if the ROH is used just make it not a viable tactic e.g.
      – reduce damage from that early part of the tracer
      – slow the weapon if it hits something
      – reduce the turn speed when you hit more than 90 degrees - eliminate the spinning top people do with high mouse sensitivity

    I thought ROHs were gone? I haven’t been able to do one yet and I believe Vesros or one of the devs mentioned they got rid of them.



  • @ToLazy4Name yes pretty much impossible to do, but I assume if torso movement is implemented (lean back) that might reintroduce them?

    As a side note I think it is a little funky that the weapon model passes through someone behind you with no effect.

    Also parry has much more of a knock back effect in Mirage so I would imagine they are more difficult to use anyway.



  • @Wii-Eleven said in Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11:

    snt care about

    Hi Will,

    Dont feel bad about the lack of feedback, for those of us that are somewhat new to the closed alpha, and dont have a lot of playtime (in my case), I want to get some more hours under my belt before I can intelligently discuss your points.

    I agree that the combat feels less engaging than Chivalry, and that on the face of it, at least from my chiv experience, not having a drawback for missed attacks and feints seems like an odd choice. That being said, its a new game and I dont know how many of my first impressions are because of mechanics that need some tightening, and how much of it is the fact that its new.



  • @The-Science… said in Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11:

    @Wii-Eleven said in Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11:

    snt care about

    Hi Will,

    Dont feel bad about the lack of feedback

    Right, at least Wi11 got responses to all his posts, only 2% of mine got responses.

    hehe joking of course I know they read them and don’t expect replies, the builds may already have changed, they may be experimenting with changes, going in a different direction, may disagree, they may really like spikes on their boulders etc.



  • @gregcau said in Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11:

    @ToLazy4Name yes pretty much impossible to do, but I assume if torso movement is implemented (lean back) that might reintroduce them?

    I was able to land them on bots with the Vigilist and Taurant a couple of weeks ago, but haven’t tried it recently.

    Definitely less viable than Chiv, but possible.



  • @The-Science… said in Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11:

    not having a drawback for missed attacks and feints seems like an odd choice

    I will state the obvious but afaik that is just not implemented yet, it would be too silly if you could just run around constant comboing. Feints they already said havent been worked on really. Even before they get to those pieces there is still lots of work around queuing attacks and skills, so yeah still Alpha but we get to see the evolution.



  • I finally realized (nub alpha tester) why I felt parrying was easier, it was mentioned if the attack is going to miss in CMW your parry misses, whereas in Mirage it will still parry.

    So that changes combat significantly, especially combined with the greater knockback when parrying, much more back and forth.

    I think probably that eliminates a chunk of footwork, intentional misses to turn into a combo would be removed. I think the knockback also prevents you running around the side and flanking your opponent while parrying.

    Hard to tell which is better, consistent parries is a good thing I guess.



  • @gregcau Yes, your parries are handled differently in Mirage than in CMW.

    In CMW, an attack tracer has to intersect with your hitbox and your parry volume to register as a parry (partly responsible for why butt-parries can happen), while in Mirage, the parry volume is separate from your hitbox, allowing you to somewhat mitigate intentional misses while it eliminates butt-parries.



  • @Reithur said in Melee Combat Fluency - Wi11:

    @gregcau Yes, your parries are handled differently in Mirage than in CMW.

    In CMW, an attack tracer has to intersect with your hitbox and your parry volume to register as a parry (partly responsible for why butt-parries can happen), while in Mirage, the parry volume is separate from your hitbox, allowing you to somewhat mitigate intentional misses while it eliminates butt-parries.

    Wait, is TBS against intentional misses? Those are kind of HUGE in teamfights for baiting out parries.



  • @ChuckingIt I think the size and distance of the parry volume needs some work still; it used to be much larger, forcing you to catch things that would have missed you by a great deal (catching 2 parries when only one would have hit you, etc.). I’d like to get them tighter to your own hitbox still since I still feel like I’m taking shield-strength drain unnecessarily at times.