Courtyard - Level Feedback



  • 0_1463686033868_Courtyard_alpha.jpg

    Game Mode: ps_Courtyard (symmetric bomb delivery)

    • Both teams trying to push the Ark in opposite direction, along the route which leads to the enemy team area.
    • The match is played in rounds. The team which manage to push the Ark to their end of the route, wins the round. The team which wins 5 rounds wins the match.
    • To prevent the stale and decentivize reckless play - each player death add a cumulative respawn timer penalty of 2 seconds, which adds infinitely. That penalty is reset at the end of the round.

    Environment

    • Palace Courtyard
    • A mix of narrow bottleneck passages and open spaces with tight traversal loops.
    • Two distinct layers of top/bottom.

    Please post any thoughts/feedback about the level design/art direction for the level in this thread. Please refrain from posting specific bugs in this thread and direct those to bug reports



  • Not much in the way of flanking but I like the addition of the 2 second death penalty, makes you focus on not dying a lot more since it is a small space. Looks like you could setup a decent defensive perimeter.



  • We played this map twice during our test session today, and it lasted way too long, having to win 5 rounds was a bit too much. After 30 minutes or so of the map there was a score of 3-2 and we decided we’d switch to another one instead.

    • Flanking is alright, you can easily get the drop on the enemies, get behind them or just charge at them head on.
    • It seems you can climb and jump around anywhere which is neat.
    • The double push objective is interesting, but takes too long if both teams play as well as the other.

    Overall the map was fun and I can see it being a more interesting mode for competetive players that enjoy quick action while still prefering an objective to TDM.



  • I would like to add that the spawns are too close to the path the pushable takes.

    With the spawns so close it really puts a lot more pressure on the attacking team. They probably fought the defenders and lost some health already, by the time the pushable goes past the spawn, all the defenders will have respawned and a team fight ensues. If the attackers aren’t playing significantly better, there is a good chance they’ll lose all that progress they made.

    This also contributes to the map taking too long, as stalemates occur near the spawns all the time.

    Oh I also wanted to mention, all those areas above the path the pushable takes are very rarely used. We saw alchemancers sitting up above and making use of that area, but that area was insignificant for all the melee characters, unless they were chasing off an alchemancer.

    Perhaps something else could be put there to make visiting that area more interesting? A health pickup? An object that can help take control of the pushable?



  • @Xylvion said in Courtyard - Level Feedback:

    We played this map twice during our test session today, and it lasted way too long, having to win 5 rounds was a bit too much. After 30 minutes or so of the map there was a score of 3-2 and we decided we’d switch to another one instead.

    • Flanking is alright, you can easily get the drop on the enemies, get behind them or just charge at them head on.
    • It seems you can climb and jump around anywhere which is neat.
    • The double push objective is interesting, but takes too long if both teams play as well as the other.

    Overall the map was fun and I can see it being a more interesting mode for competetive players that enjoy quick action while still prefering an objective to TDM.

    These maps are taking too long because “increased spawn time after every death” doesn’t work. At one point I had over 30 deaths which should result in 60s respawn.



  • @rumpelstiltskin It resets at the end of every round rumpel. Basically, when either the team you’re on or the opposing team gets the bomb to said location, the spawn timers will be reset to normal. Then again I never kept an eye on the timer myself, so you may be right and it may be broken.



  • Also I find the two extra seconds of respawn time every death a questionable mechanic at best. This is a snowball-mechanic. It punishes you for doing badly and makes you do even worse. How is dying in and of itself not enough punishment, especially if the enemy team then gets to push objectives?

    So if the enemy team plays well and they single out single opponents, they can quickly make their enemies spawn at very irregular intervals. In Chiv comp, I recall this being called trickling. This mechanic would essentially force trickling, unless the team coordinates and waits for everyone to respawn. This is going to be an issue in pub games, unless pub games aren’t being accounted for or even desired.


  • Developer

    You’re spot on with the timing there UberMann. It’s something we’d noticed internally (better players rarely noticed their time increase, while worse ones became very frustrated). We’re discussing ideas for addressing it, but the one we’ll likely try first is just to link it to time rather than deaths. We use wave based respawns to try to mitigate trickling, but it can also be a little more difficult to realize that respawn time has increase since it fluctuates regularly anyways. We want to have people spawning together as much as possible since in our game 1vX is extremely difficult for new players, and the death-based increase interferes with that.



  • Really fun map, I like the back and forth play a lot but I do feel that it can drag on for too long.

    A suggestion that someone already said was to make the spawns a little further away from the path. Right now once it gets near a spawn the attackers are often low on hp and can get wiped and then it’s back to being pushed the other way while it takes a while for them to get back and continue any progress they may have had.

    Something I was thinking would maybe be make the spawns closer to the middle, where the cart starts. This let’s the current defending team be able to get to the cart slightly faster and push back and helps there not just be a wall of people flowing out right next to where the cart is being pushed to. It makes conflicts happen in more areas too- for example: instead of just rushing to the cart a player could stay behind and try to distract the defenders as they spawn while their team pushes on.



  • @TBPhoenix said in Courtyard - Level Feedback:

    We use wave based respawns to try to mitigate trickling,

    While that made some sense in CMW due to large numbers of players. I really think it is dubious to use it for Mirage.

    Random spawns means you could (and will) have one player with just bad luck with back to back spawns (30 seconds sitting around), meanwhile a lucky player gets two 2 second respawns. Adding that RNG to a “competitive” game seems bad, not only that its quite frustrating from a usability perspective. I die and so now I have to stare to see if the clock gave me a crappy or good respawn count. If too short I probably wont bother trying to change the class.

    I really think the respawn should be “consistent”, pick a number of seconds every time as the base - maybe its 5, maybe its 8.

    Trickling players I dont see an issue, your fault if you off into combat vs 3 by yourself, the reality is you are usually waiting for some cooldowns anyway and then another player to join you - IF you want, otherwise you can do some range attacks.

    As for the first to 5, we had this age old issue with CMW and LTS where it was first to 7 and then very sensibly was reduced to first to 3. Seems like first to 3 is the next step and remove the “add 2 seconds for dying”.


  • Developer

    Hey Greg,

    It’s actually much more important in Mirage to try to spawn with team mates than in Chiv because of the low player count. We started with a consistent timing method and it ended up being a serious problem. Outside of comp play, people are just not inclined to wait for team mates, especially when acting on objectives can seem very urgent. Furthermore, the waves are actually a much more consistent way to try to set up encounters between teams than individual spawns, and it helps with an ebb and flow feeling to combat rather than a constant mash. Even though this may feel slightly more variable to a player, in the scope of the game, it’s a more consistent feel. Our spawn waves are also not incredibly long (~15 secs), and there’s a minimum value for respawns, so you may end up in the next wave if you spawn at the end of a previous one. So it’s something like min 4, max 19. Obviously this’ll end up becoming more complex with the time extension over time on this particular map.

    We’re also currently missing a few features we’d like to add to the HUD to help make the waves a bit more integral to play (a wave timer and/or spawn queue list) for instance.



  • @TBPhoenix said in Courtyard - Level Feedback:

    We’re also currently missing a few features we’d like to add to the HUD to help make the waves a bit more integral to play (a wave timer and/or spawn queue list) for instance.

    Fair enough, if you actually saw who you were spawning with, that would change the dynamic - you could use the team voice to shout out a strategy during the countdown.

    Just in general it is very confusing to tell who is alive and who is dead at any point in time (without tab but that doesnt tell you who just died and who is rejoinining).