Mirage design questions



  • We are going to be away camping, so more testing next week. The big quesions I have are around TO Map Design.
    And I realize obviously the main focus right now is melee, spells, solid comp maps without bugs etc. But I’ll ask anyway:

    Strategy (General)

    For myself one of the beautiful features of CMW is that for most maps you are faced with a design on how you want to tackle the map in order to win the objective. Stoneshill kill the peasants as a simple example there any many options

    • run around the left and start burning the side houses
    • storm down the middle and either engage agatha and/or burn closest houses
    • run around the right and hit the middle
    • take the top hill, creep down or archer covering fire
    • use the catapult

    There are options and depending on your playstyle you may tackle the map differently. Contrast that with Academy for example there are really only two options - take the left or right and the only option is really how many of you will go that way, and then some options around elevation and who goes where - all of that is completely dependent on your team.

    We already have blue health orbs, so why not have a room where each team can decide whether to spend time getting some other advantage.

    Q1: Do you have any plans to enhance the maps in terms of strategies, or will it always be “stand on objective”, “push objective”?

    Mini Battles

    With CMW there is almost always a secondary battle around a ballista or catapult, this splits the team up and creates some fun one-on-one battles quite often.

    Q2: Will there something introduced into the maps to provide an incentive to gain an advantage?

    Use Key

    There is a beauty in CMW to interacting with the map, whether a balistae, catapult, kicking a ladder, torches, drinking mead, etc.

    Q3: Will there be a way to interact with the maps later?

    Integration of Objectives into Maps

    In CMW each objective had a purpose. The purpose can be justified, even if it wasn’t completely logical. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard ‘why dont we break the wheels off the cart’, ‘why dont we just knock the pyre down’. But regardless each stage there was interacting with the map. I think Ravine second objective is the most egregious objective that is not related to the map.

    Q4: Will there be more effort to make the objective clearly part of the map itself?

    TO Third objective

    Battlegrounds never felt complete because there were only 2 objectives. The bread and butter is 3 objectives in order to tell the story. Without it we lose a lot of character to team objective.

    Q5: Will a 3rd objective be added to each TO map?

    TDM

    I am biased because I despise that game mode. I can understand in CMW its ok somewhat because its really just your army running out to kill the other army.

    But with Mirage it makes no sense at all, these are 6 disparate individuals that have come together (for some unknown reason). Why would you have 50 of them and play to kill each other over and over again with no objective to fight over.
    All the other game modes are far more interesting. You kill as much as you can in those maps, TDM is just the same - except no objective apart from a dull number of kills. Falcon Ridge looks very dull too.

    Q6: Can I convince you to drop TDM, not a fan to have that in the rotation?

    Mirage teams

    Right now there is nothing to distinguish between the two teams. Not only that the two teams have the same character lineup.

    Q7: Will there be artwork coming to make the two teams look different?

    Team Damage

    For the map where every time you die you get 2 more seconds on the timer, the cancerous trolls are going to have a riot.

    I think team damage should be a server setting similar to CMW, but off by default for melee (and ranged) attacks.

    Q8: Can we have team damage off by default to remove the 99% reason for trolling and votekicking in CMW?


  • Developer

    Great post Gregcau, you’re nailing quite a few of our own concerns here.

    Q1: Do you have any plans to enhance the maps in terms of strategies, or will it always be “stand on objective”, “push objective”?
    The TO maps are in their near final form. We have quite a lot of work left to add context to the objectives and add background story to the maps to give what you’re doing more meaning. With the smaller scale battles of Mirage and it’s the variety of classes and abilities, we feel there will be lots of room for team strategy and flexibility in how payers want to approach each map.

    Q2: Will there something introduced into the maps to provide an incentive to gain an advantage?
    We’re trying to create opportunities for smaller encounters with multiple objectives active, buff/health pickups, tuning spawn timers and distances to help sculpt encounters as well as multiple routes through the maps. Currently we have no plans for siege weapons or the like.

    Q3: Will there be a way to interact with the maps later?
    We’re working on adding things to make the maps feel more alive and interactive (and adding context to the objectives so they feel more interactive as well). No word on what they’ll be at this point in time.

    Q4: Will there be more effort to make the objective clearly part of the map itself?
    Yes, as mentioned earlier we’re currently working hard to add context to the objectives so players understand what they’re doing and why it’s important.

    Q5: Will a 3rd objective be added to each TO map?
    We did a lot of playtesting earlier in development with 3 staged TO maps and decided to rework the maps into shorter, 2 objective versions. Again, context is everything.

    Q6: Can I convince you to drop TDM, not a fan to have that in the rotation?
    Just like in Chiv our servers will be running with multiple configurations. If you don’t like TDM you’ll be able to avoid it. As with the rest of the game we’re targeting 6v6 as our ideal match size.

    Q7: Will there be artwork coming to make the two teams look different?
    The main distinguishing factor is the purple/orange clothing and glowing effects. Skin tones and VO will also be unique to each team. We’ll be paying attention to feedback on this during the alpha/beta and will take action if necessary. We have no plans to make 6 unique player models for each team.

    Q8: Can we have team damage off by default to remove the 99% reason for trolling and votekicking in CMW?
    We’ll also be keeping a keen eye on feedback on this through the beta. FF is currently much friendlier in Mirage than Chiv and it usually takes deliberate effort to kill team mates with any frequency. FF is also very much still in tuning, we currently have no penalty in game for team killing either. We had FF off for a long time during development and most of the team felt like it was missing. Your suggestions would be a possibility, but no decision has been made yet.



  • @Killer-Crabs said in Mirage design questions:

    Q5: Will a 3rd objective be added to each TO map?
    We did a lot of playtesting earlier in development with 3 staged TO maps and decided to rework the maps into shorter, 2 objective versions. Again, context is everything.

    Actually now I think of it, you did do a small middle objective in Academy, I think it would be easy to do something similar in Ravine or Bazaar and it just makes the whole map feel more more substantial.



  • To add to this discussion (Sorry for hijacking your thread with another question greg!).
    Will there be a dual capture, similar to that of the trebuches in CMW? It could also be similar to the cistern stage on darkforest where you have to break your team apart to capture two areas (And to make it more interesting you could make 3 capture points and have the attackers capture 2 of them to progress).


  • Developer

    @Xylvion We actually had that for the first stage of Academy and in a now removed 3rd stage of Ravine. The attacking team needed to hold both objectives simultaneously for a set period of time. With the smaller team sizes it proved really hard to capture and hold both points, defenders could stack on one objective and counter attack pretty easily if the attackers tried to gain it. We opted to use the point system we have now instead.



  • If you plan to keep the FF, please add some warning or feedback in, that tells the player who is team hitting to stop team hitting.

    Left 4 Dead has a good solution here, it allows team hitting, but when you do, a message pops up, telling you to stop, highlights the player you hit and then moves the message on the player you hit. However the message fades doesn’t last long and fades out quickly, as to reduce the visual clutter. After all, you need to see what’s happening around you.

    This is always something that bothered me tremendously in Chiv, new players have no idea they’re doing anything wrong when they slice you in the back of the skull. And the penalty for team killing should be severe, it almost feels like a few extra seconds of respawn time are too slight a punishment. Most trolls will find that the extra respawn time is worth the effect they have on their teammates.

    All of this will be all the more pronounced in a 6v6 environment, because a single team kill can throw the game entirely in the opposite direction.



  • @UberMann said in Mirage design questions:

    If you plan to keep the FF, please add some warning or feedback in, that tells the player who is team hitting to stop team hitting.

    Left 4 Dead has a good solution here, it allows team hitting, but when you do, a message pops up, telling you to stop, highlights the player you hit and then moves the message on the player you hit. However the message fades doesn’t last long and fades out quickly, as to reduce the visual clutter. After all, you need to see what’s happening around you.

    This is always something that bothered me tremendously in Chiv, new players have no idea they’re doing anything wrong when they slice you in the back of the skull. And the penalty for team killing should be severe, it almost feels like a few extra seconds of respawn time are too slight a punishment. Most trolls will find that the extra respawn time is worth the effect they have on their teammates.

    All of this will be all the more pronounced in a 6v6 environment, because a single team kill can throw the game entirely in the opposite direction.

    Great idea as long as it’s toggleable.



  • @rumpelstiltskin Agreed. Should always be on for newbies though, until they realize what they’re doing and manually turn it off.


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