Parries, animations and clunkyness (52985)

  • I generally wait for Gauntlet to make a post giving feedback on the game as he’s far more eloquent than I could ever hope to be, but most of what i’m gonna discuss here is about the game in general and not any specific build.

    Since i’ve become a tester i’ve always felt that there was something a bit off in regards to parries, attack animations and dragging. After 15 hours of test time, I think i’ve nailed down the exact issue I have with how all of these things are working.

    My first issue is how parries work. In Chivalry, parries only activated when someone actually collides with another player’s hitbox. This (currently) isn’t how it works and it instead activates when someone hits another player’s actual parry box. The obvious benefit of this is that it cuts down on how effective intentional misses are, which is a good thing. The issue with this however is that this severely impacts the effectiveness of dragging, which is made worse by how the actual animations currently are.

    This brings us to my next point: animations. I’m going to be using overhead attacks as an example here as they highlight my point the best. In Chivalry, most overhead attacks started from one shoulder (a longsword overhead would start from your right shoulder) and go down to the opposite hip (longsword overhead would stop near your left hip). Because of how the actual animation travels from one side to the other and the fact that parries didn’t activate until you actually hit your opponent meant that you could normally do decelerated drags without having to actually take your eyes off of your opponent. In Mirage, this isn’t the case. Overheads travel in an almost perfectly vertical fashion.

    This brings me to the crux of my current issue: The way parries work coupled with how the actual animations play out means that you can only effectively drag if you turn away from your opponent and then drag the attack back into them at the last second. This is incredibly jarring and makes it even harder to react to your opponent’s counter attacks.

    Now, with that outta the way, lemme get into the actual current build (some of this will simply be a copy + paste of another post I made in the focus test thread).

    Chivalry hit trading being back is bad enough on its own, but coupling this with the increased knockback is a recipe for disaster. The increased knockback means you can create more space after you hit your opponent and they parry, which then gives you more time to start your next attack and presumably get out of windup so they either trade with you or cftp. Basically, if the knockback is so hard that you can’t land a riposte on someone, they’re typically gonna be able to trade you if you try to close the distance with them.

    Certain abilities can now be held for an extended period of time before release such as the taurant’s boulder throw, but i’m aware that most of this isn’t intentional and the devs are already aware of it. So, outside of reverting this change, I also think that the boulder throw needs to be tweaked a bit. Instead of the boulder appearing in front of the taurant, I think it should instead appear directly above him. This would stop it from literally starting inside of someone’s hitbox and give them more time to react to it in the case of a point blank throw.

    Queueing is still present and I actually think it had gotten worse somehow. It’s entirely possible that I simply wasn’t paying attention before, but in this build i’m now noticing that I can queue up not only attacks but also parries. I understand that working on bugs ‘n’ such is important, but it’s really frustrating to have to deal with the massive amount of queueing that is going on. It’s one of the biggest contributors to the overall feeling of clunkyness that the game has.

    Speaking of clunkyness (and also FHF), the issue of getting out of sync is still a big one as well. Basically, getting hit doesn’t reset you back to your default state. Because of this, you can get hit and if you’re out of sync even slightly then your opponent gets a free hit on you because they get off their next attack before you can recover from your failed parry and get a new one out. If you’re playing a class with a smaller health pool, you’re pretty much guaranteed to die if this happens, and even if you’re a class with a larger pool of HP you’re still gonna be severely weakened. This is only worsened by the massive queueing issues mentioned above.

  • The last point you made is more or less because you go into parry recovery even though you’ve been hit, unlike in chivalry, and yes it’s really clunky and annoying.

    I’ve not really tested the build properly yet so I’ll not comment on them yet.

  • Developer

    @Xylvion This is incorrect and it hasn’t been the case in any of the external builds as far as I know, when hit you go into Interrupt which locks any action out for 0.2s (this lockout has changed a few times but never longer then 0.2s) and after that you can parry again at any time.
    Sometimes youare unable to do any new action for longer than that after getting interrupted but I have no leads on how you get into this state.

  • Developer

    The parry thing is on point and something we’re actively looking at, we tried the Chivalry way recently and not being able to punish missed swings was something we really missed.
    The current parry box is awkwardly sized as body parts stick through it otherwise, in the next build we’ve fixed this and the parry box is less then half the length of the current one as well as a reduction in width, this is gonna need a lot more tweaking but it should be much better. If it’s still not good enough we have a few more things we can try as well, we’re absolutely working on solving it though.

    The overhead animation point might be correct but it’s too hard to tell with the current parry box, we’ll need to revisit this once it is in a better place.

    Hit trading and knockbacks were definitely not in a good spot here, knockbacks have been adjusted and you can interrupt in release for the first 0.2s in the next build. We’ll be incrementally changing these to see what kind of impact it has for a while still.

    Projectile like the boulder starting past parry boxes will be fixed eventually, it’s a pretty straight forward fix just have higher priority items right now.

    Queueing was worse this build as we were in the middle of solving some issues, I hope it’s better next build, I think I found a big cause for accidental queues and we got a few bug fixes in. Queuing is the worst…
    I’m suspecting some issues with states and queueing are happening on the alpha servers that we haven’t been seeing in our internal tests are happening primarily due to higher latency which is why we’ve struggled to improve it recently, if there’s still major issues next build we’ll have to do some serious digging for sure.

  • @Vesros Oh I figured it was parry recovery, either way, it seems like quite a clunky phase, maybe if you allow parry during it but not attacks?
    Then again, isn’t there a completely separate flinch state for when you get hit? or is that the 0.2 seconds timer?

  • Developer

    @Xylvion You go into the interrupt state which is about 0.8s and no attacks are allowed in it, parries are allowed after a short lockout.
    No lockout feels bad as you can get hit and then parry a millisecond afterwards.

    I think the way this works is fine but I definitely have been seeing issues where it feels like you can’t parry for longer than this and finding out the cause of this is needed before we change it further.

  • @Vesros said in Parries, animations and clunkyness (52985):

    The parry thing is on point and something we’re actively looking at, we tried the Chivalry way recently and not being able to punish missed swings was something we really missed.

    Punishing missed swings already occurs in that the player who missed the strike loses stamina first from a missed attack, and if they recovered via use of cftp, they’re now even further down in the stamina battle. In higher level play feinting into a missed attack to bait the cftp leads to yet more stamina loss and then taking the follow up hit as well. Punishing missed swings via artificial parry lockouts (assuming this is the alternative to the Chivalry way of handling parry) brings the game down to its lowest level of play, especially considering there are many abilities in this game to force misses (phase, pounce, dervish, levitate, magic carpet, teleport, dash attack, dash kick, leaping strike, disperse, back stepping / side stepping with the directional hops). It’d be like fighting a man at arms before players realized you could cftp, every single dodge was a free hit for the maa.

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