General Feedback Build 54909



  • Feedback Build 54909

    Combat and Movement
    The following is very subjective as I don’t have concrete numbers to justify my position. These are all how it “feels” to play the combat in this game.

    • Wind up times feel too long and combo times feel too short. Results in players who can accidentally misjudge range and follow up much quicker than you can punish it, even if you didn’t parry at their miss and began to punish as soon as you interpreted the miss.
    • The sense of reach when evading attacks is normalized, I no longer feel like I’m being hit by out of range attacks. Though it still sometimes happens, but I’m not quite sure if this is related to character models during idle stance (legs sticking forward?), desync with the server (there’s lots of that currently!)
    • Movement can be jittery when using Entropist magic carpet and ledging / wall jumps.
    • Dodge/jump movement feels amazing, great work. Would love to have a standing jump return as currently jump while standing still causes a forward movement.
    • Gameplay is starting to come together in a very cohesive way, I’m excited to see more.
    • Knockback is excessive, making ripostes feel like a gamble whether you’re in reach or not when playing characters with shorter reach.
    • Player movement speed feels a tad bit high atm. Issue compounded with really tight turn radius which feels bad for the attacker and makes hitting moving targets very difficult.
    • Queuing issues still exist, I can still accidentally queue parries from time to time. Post flinch melee queues still happen, which can be very confusing for the user. Might be related to the player queuing during flinch and the game accepting that input?

    Classes

    Vigilist - In facehug range she has a bit of a dead zone if the opponent moves to the Vigilist’s left side to evade a stab. The stab tracers start from the far right and only begin to center towards the end of the stab animation. Issue compounded with excessively oppressive turn cap.

    Taurant - Can intentionally miss with the first swing on the whirlwind attack in face hug (or within reach of the attack) and drag the second part of the attack onto his opponent, forcing a gamble situation similar to reverse overheads in Chivalry (Do I parry instantly in case the first part of the hit connects or wait and see if the ROH hits at the tail end of the attack?)

    The changes to Taurant leap slam are excellent and I no longer feel punished when Taurant begins this attack. In my experience Leap Slam doesn’t properly animate where the Taurant is looking, so you will sometimes see him aiming one way, but instantaneously change direction when the slam comes.

    Questions
    General Questions:

    What’s your favourite character class?

    • Tinker: most fun abilities (spawn rock, hook shot, back flip). Currently her melee feels bad to play due to oppressive turn caps.

    What’s your least favourite character class?

    • Vigilist: The abilities can be fun to use, but I simply hate the character design. She’s very plain and uninteresting both visually and from a gameplay perspective.

    What’s your favourite ability?

    • SPAWN. ROCK. I will miss space flight when it is fixed.

    What’s your least favourite ability?

    • Entropist healing abilities. Messes with your sense of hits to kill significantly. Would be alright if it flashed the players health when they were healed.

    Open Questions:

    What’s fun and what’s not?

    • Fun: Melee so long that it receives the attention it currently needs
      Not fun: Alchemancer - A class with a lot of potential that is being squandered by forcing a non-melee class in a melee focused game.

    Thoughts on the game balance?

    • Chaos orb far too potent. Taurant is a juggernaut this build because of the universal turn caps, effectively neutering the light classes.
    • Vigilist is in a good spot now that held block is gone (there is no counter to hold block like heavy kick in chiv, so it should probably stay removed unless a heavy kick style ability is introduced to ALL classes to counter turtle strats).

    If you could change only one thing in Mirage, what that would be?

    Two things

    • Introduce a dedicated feint button that is separate from the parry button, so I don’t have to worry about accidental parries when I’m trying to feint.
    • Remove all artificial lockouts that might exist (cftp and ftp feel like there is a delay). The delay that is felt on cftp and ftp actions I believe is related to the changes made to packet loss and desync, as I noticed with a small hiccup in my internet my windup time became excessively long. Introduced a lot of inconsistency to the gameplay from the user perspective.

    Bazaar!
    TO_Bazaar - This map is quite good, with one technical caveat. The Azar cabal spawn has a fairly intense frame dip when looking at the Bazaar from the docks. Optimization definitely required for lower end pc’s (framerate ~50 on GTX 780 running “high” preset with no players present).

    Screenshots to illustrate some map escapes and other things that probably shouldn’t exist.
    0_1468450770292_20160708113113_1.jpg
    Stuck spot replicated by taking any class and jumping up to the bridge during the prep-phase of TO_Bazaar, and standing on the bridge. When the prep timer ends the player if standing on the bridge section closest to the first objective will be caught by the rising bridge and will have to f10 to escape being pinned. Can also stand on the middle of the bridge and wind up at the top when combined with class abilities.

    0_1468450927984_20160708113653_1.jpg
    Section of the roof above B site where the glass doesn’t force your character off. Can be used to gain a tactical advantage.

    0_1468450985188_20160708114949_1.jpg
    The building overlooking B site has no invis walls to prevent players from scaling to the top of it. Can be used for a tactical advantage.

    0_1468451033758_20160708115129_1.jpg
    Another section where the glass isn’t present.

    0_1468451129586_20160712183640_1.jpg
    Stage 2 of Bazaar classes can sit on this cloth without being bounced off. Gains a tactical advantage while being unreachable for certain classes.



  • On the topic of windup/release/recovery and all that good stuff, I feel like release times are far too short. I just started playing today, but I was dueling Simon and Kaoz for about 3-4 hours and we all agreed it was near-impossible to drag attacks. Not only that, but sometimes range can be very deceiving, especially on ripostes. Maybe I’m just bad, but no matter how hard I tried to drag attacks they wouldn’t last long enough or they would awkwardly hit the handle, or at least that’s what it looked like. The turn cap feels alright, but in some situations it feels very punishing.

    Maybe the devs would rather drags not be in this game, but I feel it’s a core mechanic that adds a lot of exciting moments to the game and also adds a lot of competitiveness. Or then again, maybe I’m bad and fail to pull off drags.

    I really like your idea about adding a dedicated feint button. I feel like this should be mandatory without question. The whole queuing system and me having to feint with RMB felt incredibly awkward and messed me up quite a few times.

    I also noticed quite a bit of delays, the whole parry system and riposting felt kind of clunky. It still worked quite well and I enjoyed it a lot, but the whole system felt laggy.

    Overall I really do like it so far, it feels really good to play most of the time, I’m excited to see what’s to come in the future!



  • @wizardish Another reason as to why drags feel a bit wonky atm is that they don’t deal damage at the end of release for a lot of overheads and slashes, probably due to the “no-reverse” mechanic.

    Then there’s the fact that lookdown overheads still go through parry, or that reverses can’t be parried before they enter the attackable area so they still bypass the parrybox.


  • Developer

    Awesome feedback!

    Combat

    • Glad the reach feels better, been doing quite a few things and still have plenty of polish things nailed down that will improve it further
    • Standing jumps have been adjusted to go straight up a long with giving you air control for more control
    • Will be looking into the knockbacks, looking into revamping how they work entirely atm so that there is more variance and for the range -between you and the target to be taken into account as well.
    • Turn rates will be adjusted
    • Queueing issues are being slowly looked at, we’ll Definitely have them sorted before we scale up testing
    • Setting up the instant cancel-parry and separate cancel button atm, will be in the next build or the one after that
    • The long windup times is an interesting issue and side effect of the system, I think it’ll be fine once the game is optimized, we’ll have to keep an eye on it though.

    Classes

    • We have adjusted the vigilist stab further so keep an eye on it for the next build
    • Will look over the rotation limits on leapslam, quite possibly it allows you to turn around too quickly

    Questions

    • Do you think base movement speed or sprinting speed is too high?
      • is the speed at which you can strafe around players okay or too much?
    • What keybindings do you guys think makes sense for cancel/CancelToParry attacks? We’re definitively struggling a bit with the amount of buttons right now

    We’ll be starting a round of polishing up everything soon so hoping to sort out all the wonkiness and make online play significantly better.


  • Developer

    In regards to dragging we absolutely want it to be a thing, we’ve gone between extremes recently and have kept the alpha builds to the low end. We’ll be slowly tuning it til it feels right, we’re not sure what level of it we want compared to chiv right now and need plenty of time/testing to get it right.

    Luckily this is one of the easiest things to tweak right now so feedback on it going forward will be vital to get the balance right.



  • @Vesros I didn’t really feel like player movement was too fast, I might need to experience a full 6v6 before I know for sure though. The strafing speed feels fine too.

    Big rant, very subjective:

    Feint-to-parry should be automatically on the right-mouse button, or there should be an option to have it enabled. In Chivalry I think it was unintended (not sure on that one), but players had an option. In chiv, I found that having a FTP bind was very helpful in a lot of situations and I preferred it. Some players preferred to not have the bind. I think it’s a great “option” to have. I’m not sure how it would be in this game though, maybe there are some issues with balancing bind or no bind. Having the bind in chiv meant you were a little bit quicker and only had to press one button (convenience), on the other hand, not having the bind allowed you to be more careful against feints. It seemed as if without the bind you had more control. In chiv, it was often the case that if you were comfortable with reading feints, you would have the bind on, if you weren’t, having no bind at all would most often be better. This is because since the bind is one button, players would often feint to bait your bind and get a free hit in. Without a bind, you first have to feint and then parry, meaning it was harder to bait that.

    TL;DR Either have feint-to-parry automatically on RMB for everyone, OR have an option to enable the command or not (if it’s not enabled they would manually have to feint then parry). Feint/cancel should be on Q just as in chiv so that players can rebind it if they want.

    I think feinting or canceling, whatever you want to call it, should be a button of its own. Doing this just gives more control to the player. I think Q is perfectly fine as in chiv, because you are able to rebind it to whatever suits you. For me it was my side-mouse button.


  • Developer

    @wizardish Definitely want CancelToParry on RMB by default, executing a manual feint to parry is very hard for a new player so this is all around a better setup for everyone I think.

    The cancel keybinding is the tricky one, we use QERF for abilities currently (R is only for Alch reload) so getting a good control scheme here is a bit hard.

    both of these are keybinding options now that you can switch around as you want as well



  • @Vesros Completely forgot, lol. I’ll try and think of a good binding.

    EDIT: what about the option that I talked about? Is it possible that you guys make ftp binded to RMB default, but perhaps there could be an option to turn it off?



  • @Vesros
    Keybindings: I’ve mentioned this before but you could move the abilities to EFV instead of QEF, atm I have them bound that way so I can use Q to feint once that is an option. V isn’t that hard to hit as you barely use the thumb anyway except for jumping and V was used to dodge in chiv, by default. RMB should defo be used as both parry and direct feint to parry by default.

    Movement speed: I think the correlation between the types of movement is fine, aka difference between walking, strafing, backpedaling, and running, though it does feel a bit slow to run around, which might just be placebo from playing too much overwatch lately.


  • Developer

    @Xylvion We might provide a standard keybinding set and an advanced one as well. Worried EFV would be awkward for the average player, will do some testing with it.



  • @Vesros said in General Feedback Build 54909:

    @wizardish Definitely want CancelToParry on RMB by default, executing a manual feint to parry is very hard for a new player so this is all around a better setup for everyone I think.

    The cancel keybinding is the tricky one, we use QERF for abilities currently (R is only for Alch reload) so getting a good control scheme here is a bit hard.

    both of these are keybinding options now that you can switch around as you want as well

    Could also try numbers (1,2,3) for abilities. Pressing the number keys are fairly close, and there aren’t any abilities I can think of where this might be too awkward. QEF are definitely important keys and no matter what I’ll wind up rebinding the default you guys end up selecting as I find default key settings inefficient.



  • Found a button that may work - R.

    EDIT: forgot about the reload, maybe change it on Alch? It seems silly to reserve a key like that for one class.

    It feels pretty comfortable from me just pretending it’s a feint button. It also makes some sense because it’s kind of in the middle of QEF (sort of), it feels like a good spot to have a feint button. It’s almost like an entire ability so it becomes QERF. Feinting is pretty important, so I think having close access to abilities and also the comfort is important.

    Let me know what you guys think, I also like Gauntlet’s idea of 1, 2, and 3.



  • I’m not liking 1, 2, and 3 at all, mostly because I have to use my middle finger to click either of them, which means I can’t walk forwards or backwards doing so, except for 2.

    An alternative, though it seems a bit annoying, would be to have the abilities on 1, 2, and 3, but having to use another key to activate them, say E or F. It would clear up both Q and either E or F for some other use.