Devs, let's have a talk.



  • I want to talk about some concerns about the game overall, not just gameplay related. I’ve been thinking a lot about things and talking with other playtesters quite a bit. In my 3 days of playing I’ve already logged 20 hours or so, more than 90% of the playtesters that have ever played.

    I think you guys are making a great game, I said that in my last post. I really believe this game has a massive amount of potential, I think ANY of the playtesters could agree to that. However, potential doesn’t always mean success.

    One concern of the concerns I want to address and talk to you guys about in this post is how the game currently stands. Given that there have been four months of playtesting, the game feels behind to me. I’m not one to judge because I haven’t been around the entire time, but at its current state, it feels very behind in development.

    I say this because you guys have said closed beta will start in summer. I think you guys are afraid to push out closed beta because of the current state of the game. I could be wrong, but that’s what it seems like. However, I DO NOT blame you guys at all. People have mostly given you guys negativity and releasing it into open beta at this point would most likely further people’s negativity.

    I think another reason that the game feels behind in development is because there has been a serious lack of feedback. Despite all the feedback by people like Gauntlet and Xylvion, it’s simply not enough. I feel like most of your playtesters have tried out the game, put in a few hours and then just quit. This is where I feel quite bad for you guys, it really sucks that you guys are so open to feedback but receive so little. I’m not sure if you guys think it’s enough feedback or not, but one glance through this closed-alpha-testing section of the forums makes it clear. It’s been almost exactly 4 months since you guys started, so naturally you would expect a lot of feedback. However, the thread with moth posts has under 30.

    It really does suck, you guys are a young company full of young people with a ton of potential. As Simon brought up when I was talking with him, this is probably your first job in the industry for many of you bannermen, or maybe not, idk. I’ve seen what you guys have created though, how you openly ask for feedback and (usually) listen. The struggle must be real. I really can’t help but feel bad. Here you guys are with potentially a top-selling steam game, but development seems incredibly slow because of the lack of true feedback.

    At this point it’s pretty clear this is a rant, I just want to share whatever feelings/thoughts I have with you guys. I have a few solutions and a few ideas that I’d like to propose:

    You guys either need to find people that are willing to commit to this closed-alpha testing OR you need to pump out closed-beta ASAP. I’m not going to sit here trying you how to run your shit, I’m not nearly experienced and it’s your guys’ company, but I’d like you guys to ponder some things.

    Opening closed-beta as soon as possible would be ideal because I guarantee your feedback level will increase 10-20x further than it currently is. The problem is that the game might not quite be ready for that closed-beta position. I know you guys said closed-beta summer, but I’m trying to stress the importance of it. I would push for a build that has focus on things other than gameplay. The closed-beta should be primarily gameplay focused. I think the goal of a alpha test should be to gain the core fundamentals of your game. I think you guys have exceeded that, you have a amazing fucking game. EVEN IN ALPHA I CAN PLAY FOR UP TO 5 HOURS A DAY, you guys best believe I’ll play this game non-stop when you release it.

    Alright, next I want to address some things that are disappointing for me as a playtester.

    I’m not an expert coder, I’ve never touched code in my life, but god damn you guys need to prioritize some things over others. It’s incredibly frustrating playing and testing for you guys when I still need to worry about input lag, queue system issues, and just in general, small technical things that should be sorted out. I’m telling you now, it would be so much easier to focus on gameplay and bugs if you could sort out a bunch of these issues. I understand it’s an alpha and all, but for four months it really should be figured out at this point. Again, I’m not trying you how to run your shit, but I think there is definitely big benefits from prioritizing these small things. If there are some issues you guys are having, I would understand that. But, as I’ve said, it’s been a solid four months.

    Playtesting should be focused on bug-finding, gameplay balance (values, timings, etc.) not small things that should be already fixed like reactive FTPs and parries that are consistent.

    I understand you guys have a lot of shit to produce, such as the abilities, but it would be so much easier to do those AFTER sorting out key issues as I’ve already mentioned. I also know you guys have to prepare for PAX, do these lore things, advertise, and manage all this shit. However, the game should really come first. None of the other stuff you do will be successful without having the game to back it all.

    I also fuckin love how open you guys are and how much you listen to feedback. This is really the last thing I’ll mention here. I’ve talked to a lot of playtesters, and most of them are impressed, despite all the issues in the game, that you guys have managed to really fix the game where you can and try to push for an overall better experience. With that being said, I hope you guys definitely take these words into consideration, and if possible to start a discussion about some of these things if my thoughts contradict yours.

    -one of the few faithful playtesters



  • I agree with a lot of the points made in this thread, however some issues popped up later, for example the parry issues appeared as parry boxes were changed and torso movement became a thing.
    The fact that the yellow tracer starts later and allows you to hit someone’s back when you lookdown overhead is an issue, or that you can do a semi-reverse LMB and bypass their parrybox because early release can’t be parried are also major issues.

    I do think that you should put some heavy focus on the important core game mechanics though and get them to work properly, as wizardish mentioned, if it’s not working as intended before the open beta, there will be more negativity from the community.


    That said… Something I would like to add is the focus on new maps, which I don’t really understand. (Sure you have some people that work in the art department and that’s what they do). But right now I usually only play with gremp, we’re two people, resulting in that I can’t give any feedback at all about any map. The NA testers sure have more potential for that type of testing.

    An example would be the outdoors garden when you’ve already entered the palace gates on Academy, I’ve never been in that area at all, even when we did 4v4 testing once. But that might have just been situational. So all I can give feedback on is interaction with the environment, how vaults work in different areas, or how smooth it is to traverse terrain, or aesthetics. I can only theorize about gameplay elements.

    Why I bring this up is because the feedback you seem most interested in revolves around maps and map balance, which is something I can’t help you with. (It doesn’t seem like anyone is giving feedback regarding the subject either as of right now.)
    I also think that it’s something that would be better to test during the beta, considering more people resulting in more full matches, resulting in more matches played, which means that we can come to a conclusion.



  • Before considering a closed beta with a wider player base, queuing issues and common desync issues must be resolved. That is my opinion but I’ll firmly stand by it because your first impression to more public spaces is often the lasting impression, and a flimsy foundation is not the way you want players to first experience the game.

    In Mirage my most common experience is I have no idea what my character is doing, especially in the heat of combat when I’m giving the game many inputs. Sometimes it feels like the game can’t even keep up with those inputs. What comes next is often a surprise to me, and if it’s a surprise to a veteran of this type of melee gameplay what would it be like for someone who hasn’t a clue?

    I think TBS is focusing on PAX West, which means lots of polishing will be coming in the next couple of months leading up to PAX. After this event I have a feeling they’ll be looking towards launching a beta. With all the coming focus on playability hopefully the game will be in a better state for devs to consider beta.



  • @Gauntlet said in Devs, let's have a talk.:

    Before considering a closed beta with a wider player base, queuing issues and common desync issues must be resolved. That is my opinion but I’ll firmly stand by it because your first impression to more public spaces is often the lasting impression, and a flimsy foundation is not the way you want players to first experience the game.

    In Mirage my most common experience is I have no idea what my character is doing, especially in the heat of combat when I’m giving the game many inputs. Sometimes it feels like the game can’t even keep up with those inputs. What comes next is often a surprise to me, and if it’s a surprise to a veteran of this type of melee gameplay what would it be like for someone who hasn’t a clue?

    I think TBS is focusing on PAX West, which means lots of polishing will be coming in the next couple of months leading up to PAX. After this event I have a feeling they’ll be looking towards launching a beta. With all the coming focus on playability hopefully the game will be in a better state for devs to consider beta.

    Yeah, this is what I’m trying to get at. They need to solve these key issues before opening it to a beta, but once their beta is open the feedback they will gain will be so much more. If TBS focuses on the smaller, technical things first they can get the game out to a beta stage much quicker, IMO.



  • There’s also the fact that you can go from recovery->transitioning, which is really annoying, if I’m in recovery another attack shouldn’t be combod, it should only be possible to combo during release.

    It feels really weird when I do an overhead, wait for a bit, then another overhead, but this time it’s an alternative overhead, even though I didn’t queue until release was done and I didn’t even try to perform an alternative attack.



  • I don’t have anything to add that hasn’t already been said here in much greater detail and eloquence, but I can absolutely confirm that Wizardish and I both noticed a considerable amount of input lag/queue times during our duels, leading to wasted attacks, misfired combos, failed FTP/CFTP attempts, and in some extreme cases, commands in queue playing out about a second after input has ceased. But nothing feels TOO off the mark from where it should be, which is great! As long as these issues are examined under the microscope, I feel like the overall combat system will really shine.



  • Personally I think input queueing shouldn’t be at all in a FPS/FPMG.



  • @INerevar Why?



  • What Gauntlet said, as usual. Too early, I dont think more feedback will speed up development around the intricate combat. Perhaps sharing the snippets of core code for those people that were familiar with the CMW scripting, idk.



  • @wizardish Why would it? You see that it makes problems.
    Actions should happen precisely when you are holding a button down at the right time and not when you once clicked it anytime. Maybe that’s only a thing of me, because I’d rather hold my buttons down than smashing them repeatedly.
    It’s also a problem if you originally wanted to do one action and suddenly change your mind, but the action is already queued. This is diminished on some parts by gameplay elements though, f.e. FTP.

    Anyways, we don’t know to what extent input queueing is a thing without a comment by the devs.



  • I think that could be solved though:
    If you press LMB, then combo another LMB during release, but you decide that an overhead is better and you’re still in release of the first attack, not transitioning/combo, your queue should be cleansed and the new input should take the place of the previous one.

    Some other issues with queues that were there in the past but I’m not sure if they are anymore:

    • If I start an attack and the opponent flinches me the attack still queues after I’m out of flinch state.
      No attacks should be queued in flinch at all. I can accidentally click or scroll one more time after I’ve been hit and I don’t want an attack to start as I’m out of the flinch state.
    • If I parry and expect someone to hit my parry box but they don’t and I queue an attack that should’ve been a riposte, the attack would instead play after I parry, and the enemy can land a hit on me if I don’t FTP.
    • I’m no longer in release but instead in recovery, right now it goes from recovery->transitioning which is stupid.
      No queues during recovery would be optimal.

    Being able to control the outcome of every situation is important, annoying queues and other irregularities mess up gameplay for the end users. Accidental double clicks or other mishaps happens and when it does you shouldn’t be punished for it, considering it’s perfectly normal. If you limit queuing to release nothing weird should ever occur. I’ve not tested the game for a while, mostly due to being busy, so I don’t know how much has been fixed with the queues.

    So basically:

    • No queues during Flinch.
    • No queues during Parry.
    • No queues during Recovery.
    • “Cleansable” queue during Release.
    • If an attack is queued during parry it should only occur if the enemy hits the parrybox, aka it becomes a riposte.

    Sidenote: Speaking of ripostes… Where’s that parry during riposte that Vesros said was already a thing? When I asked Gauntlet he said that he had yet to notice it, so it doesn’t seem to be part of the game yet. c|:^)



  • Quite a few questions in this thread are answered in Alpha Build #6 release notes.