Team Size - Worried about 6v6



  • I’m worried about having a smaller team size than 12.

    While competition teams in Chiv liked the team size of 6, I’m worried about it for this game. Competition teams had luxuries, like the ability to pause the game and wait for a new person to join and to find good replacements when they couldn’t.

    Players fighting 2v1 have a massive advantage, and I don’t think people should have it much without doing something to get it. In an 11v12 or 15v16 setting, only one matchup will be at a disadvantage and in the chaos of target switching and players coming out of spawn, it won’t feel as bad.

    In a 5v6, being down a guy is too much of a problem. If you compound that with the fact that Chiv players are going to be joining this game in groups, it will be hard to get public matches going at all. The unstacked team will have constant quitters.

    I’ve played a lot of Overwatch recently, which is 6v6. It even has the luxury of grouping players by their skill ranking. I’ve got like 200 hours or more and I can say for sure it player like hammered poop most of the time. Almost every game is wildly unmatched and a team that has a quitter for even thirty seconds will lose its match, every time. It is usually the worse team that loses the player.

    If staying alive due to the use of abilities is the biggest problem in larger games, I’m sure there is a fun way to space them out more.

    The combat in Mirage without the abilities, right now at this early stage, is great. It is really fun. The magic is cool on top of it, but I don’t think it is necessary to come out of the spawn with abilities charged - if that’s a problem for larger groups playing.

    I’m sure this game will still be fun for a lot of people at 6v6, so I’m not totally down on it. I could even see comp matches staying 6v6. For the casual player, you need that large group size so that you can jump in and get lost, so you can be social, and so that imbalanced in the match making can be glossed over.



  • I agree with most of this, but I feel like I remember reading something that said the game is being balanced around 6v6, but there will be servers with (x)/32. Maybe I’m wrong, I just remember reading that somewhere.

    Something that a lot of people forget is that 2v1 should naturally be in favor of the 2 people. Theoretically, the 2 players in the 2v1 situation should win 100% of the time in C:MW assuming the players do it correctly. 2v1s will still be very possible in this game, but the 1 player will have a lot a much harder time doing so. Personally, I’m ok with this. In C:MW the amount of times reverses would go through parries made 2v1s incredibly RNG-based.

    But yeah, I wouldn’t want all official servers to be (x)/6, that seems too low for just a normal server.

    Thanks for being an alpha-tester that actually provides feedback instead of uninstalling immediately.



  • Well, I don’t really think you can compare overwatch to mirage at all.

    • You can’t parry in overwatch.
    • There are stunlocks.
    • Ultimates are retarded and kills you in less than a second most of the time.
    • It has a Rock, Paper, Scissors system. For example a Winston on full health will never be able to beat a Roadhog on full health, meanwhile a Genji on full health vs a Winston on full health will most likely end up dead as well.
      Meanwhile in Chivalry you can beat a knight as an archer, or a man at arms, or a vanguard, and vice versa.
    • Overwatch is heavily team based and relies on a good team comp, if you queue with 4 pals and the two randoms pick characters who doesn’t benefit the team or they simply can’t fill their role you will lose, even if it’s a 6v6 because there’s no real carry potential in overwatch.

    That said… I wouldn’t mind there being some 8v8 or 12v12 pubs, though it might get a bit spammy with the amount of abilities flying across the battlefield.



  • 6v6 works well due to the map size and the general dynamics of the ranged attacks, if people create non official servers with larger numbers thats fine but bit of a non skilled range spam fest. I was pretty dubious about 6v6 but after playing it for a while it works very well, large numbers dont add anything to the game. I agree some people can carry the game, but its all such fast furious action, rejoining quickly I dont see it as an issue, or need to rage quit because you died.



  • Just wanted to add to your point about leavers. In Overwatch, the penalty for leaving a quickplay match is almost non-existant. There is nothing they have done to discourage players leaving a match. I think after leaving 10 or something within the span of a few days, they reduce your XP gain to 50% or something. It’s literally the shittiest penalty you can imagine. So long as Torn Banana devs add some kind of penalties for leaving a match, (I’m talking about matchmaking btw, not a normal server) I don’t see that the problems will be as bad. Even in Overwatch quickplay, I only get a leaver(s) every 1 in 5 games or so. I almost never get a leaver in competitive because there is actually a meaningful penalty: losing ranking. Quickplay and competitive in Overwatch are a bit shit atm too, their system is really bad and often results in unfair matches. So long as Torn Banana delivers a fair matchmaking system, that will also lessen the amount of people that leave. When people get steam-rolled in OW, they don’t feel like playing anymore so they just leave.



  • @wizardish said in Team Size - Worried about 6v6:

    Just wanted to add to your point about leavers. In Overwatch, the penalty for leaving a quickplay match is almost non-existant. There is nothing they have done to discourage players leaving a match. I think after leaving 10 or something within the span of a few days, they reduce your XP gain to 50% or something. It’s literally the shittiest penalty you can imagine. So long as Torn Banana devs add some kind of penalties for leaving a match, (I’m talking about matchmaking btw, not a normal server) I don’t see that the problems will be as bad. Even in Overwatch quickplay, I only get a leaver(s) every 1 in 5 games or so. I almost never get a leaver in competitive because there is actually a meaningful penalty: losing ranking. Quickplay and competitive in Overwatch are a bit shit atm too, their system is really bad and often results in unfair matches. So long as Torn Banana delivers a fair matchmaking system, that will also lessen the amount of people that leave. When people get steam-rolled in OW, they don’t feel like playing anymore so they just leave.

    You can’t make people stay by punishing them. Take me for example. If I’m having a really bad time in OW, I’ll just quit the round, even Comp. If they gave me a week long ban for a single instance of quitting, I’d be on the Rocket League or Path of Exile in seconds.

    In Comp Rocket League, I don’t think I’ve ever raged quit, or even raged. I think they comp scene is relaxing, but I’ve played with people that get really mad. They won’t take the leaver penalty. They just ASK in goal or drive circles. They’re reading reddit and listening to Pandora until the round is over.

    All leaver penalties do is make people mad so they post on forums. No one is going to ‘try hard’ because of a leaver penalty. They have to be having fun to try hard, in general.

    That’s the problem with 6v6. One leaver - the game is over. Two great players on one team? Game is over. One afk guy on one team? Game is over. The other 5 will get destroyed.



  • It will be interesting to see what will happen with the whole matchmaking code, that is a lot of work and obviously there are higher priorities at the moment. Emulating a system similar to Dota would be nice, but adjusted for the fact that the games are a much lower commitment, since you wont be playing for up to an hour per game.



  • I got that 75% exp loss in overwatch quick play a while back. Though it was when I solo queued and ended up in matches where the team I joined was steamrolled or when the team I was on had 3 hanzos and bullshit like that. The problem with overwatch is that I can be on the front lines with Zarya and got 28-7 and we still can’t get the objective.
    I doubt there will be as much leaving in mirage because you can actually carry even if your team mates are shite.

    But I agree that there should be some leaver penalty in the competitive scene:

    • Bans: Are quite iffy and as cakebread mentioned if people get a weeklong ban, or something along those lines, they play another game meanwhile. I could see 1 day, max 3 day bans happen though during extreme cases.
    • Major Rank Drops: I think it’s better, people play comp to increase their rank, when they leave a set amount of games their ranks could drop significantly.
    • EXP gain reducements: Again same as the previous, people want to rank up and want to get better, if they leave a lot they could get a significant EXP penalty for it.

    One way to fix the leaver issue could be a separate bandaid comp queue, which people could choose to join if they so wish. Meaning if a team in comp have been reduced so it’s a 5v6 instead of a 6v6, someone who decided to try a bandaid queue could join that team. The difference is that this player wouldn’t lose EXP even if the team lost, due to the fact that his team has been underperforming for some time, and would get a slightly lower EXP boost if he wins than the rest of the team, due to the fact that the person wasn’t there all game. Theoretically it could help with the leaver problem, though I’ve never seen a system like it, so who knows?


  • Global Moderator

    There is always a posibility that with a high demand bigger teamsizes can be maybe looked at and keep 6v6 in competitve. This is something that proberly only the future can tell and the majority of the community. In the past I was also worried about only 6v6 but after playing some games that use this format I actually feel it’s a great balanced team size specially in competitive games.

    About the penalties I think for casual there shouldn’t really be penalties it only annoys players and it’s just too hard to balance it out imo. For competitive there should be one, because it’s a lot more important there to have a full team. The person that leaves should lose all exp made in that game and get a penalty to their rank or have a heavy reduced exp gain for the next 5 games or something. I also like Xylvion idea about the bandaid.

    Also after playing a decent amount of Overwatch has happend more than once when we had a 5v6 or even 4v6 and we still won, so it isn’t really impossible. It’s ofc a lot harder but with some teamwork even against far superior players it’s still possible to win. The issue is most of the times by the people themself they think we are losing too hard or someone left and just give up in their mind. Btw Overwatch might have the worst matchmaking system that I have ever seen it just doesn’t make sense at all why put a rank 7 with guys that are rank +100 or even +200 ? Just doesn’t make sense to me it’s like their matchmaking is non existent and it just puts random players in free spots.


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