General Feedback Build Alpha #07



  • Alpha Build #07
    General:
    This is finally a build where I can enjoy the melee combat for what it is. Previously the issues with lag and desync were so intense that my enjoyment of the melee was minimal. Whatever you did for Alpha #07, continue doing so for every build. These changes have been felt more strongly than anything that’s been done to date. Stability of gameplay is too important. Night and day between this and every single build since March.

    • Feint lockout after three feints I have mixed feelings on. After playing around for a bit, if I read two feints in a row it feels nice knowing the third will have to be an attack. It helps cut down on the sense of gambling a bit. However it has some bad gameplay implications in the event that you double feint into an attack but then need to feint to parry due to changing circumstances, but cannot. Perhaps consider making the FTP bind ignore the feint lockout, or simply creating an attack lockout after the third feint so you can only use it defensively if need be.

    • Currently there exists a portion of all melee attacks that does no damage to prevent reverses. These tracers that deal no damage should be parryable. Especially when a player tries to accelerate an attack and winds up overturning into it, their attack will just ghost through dealing no damage nor being detected by the parry volume. This feels clunky for both the attacker and defender. Similarly the parameters that dictate “reverse” attacks seems to be too tight on lmb swings, as targets at the tip of my 120° fov remain unaffected by the swing which feels very odd as it’s still relatively in front of my player model. This may also help with some situations where player lookdown overhead tracers aren’t parryable until release, despite their weapon model basically starting inside the parry volume but going undetected because it’s during the non-damaging portion of the swing.
      Player windups - the 450 ms minimum windup feels too slow for one-handed weapons. For the user their attacks can feel sluggish. Makes feint punishing hard combining generally long windups with FHF, as longer windups dictate longer feint windows that a player has to read first before committing to their attempted punish.

    • Ducking does not bend the torso low enough for many swings, however it is important not to effect other parts of the game by changing torso rotation (ex: stronger look down attacks). Matrixing has roughly the same height of ducking, but with the added benefit of moving the head back away from the swing so they’re more likely to strike the torso than the head.
      Images to illustrate
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    • Late feinting during windup causes character to grunt. Becomes very confusing when feint reading to hear attack grunts on feinted strikes.

    • Motion blur works nicely however when entering crouch the effect is far too pronounced. Rag dolls can also fall victim to over blurring (specifically when the ragdoll goes flying or if the torso is cut off from the waist).

    Regarding the effectiveness of drags:
    Parry duration and release windows - parry duration seems excessively long, or release seems excessively short for all weapons.
    Drags are so ineffective that feints are the only tool utilized currently for tripping up parry timing. Do not be afraid of drags, be afraid that feints will become the only tool in a veteran player’s arsenal.

    • Potentially tighten the parameters that dictate when the parry volume will detect a swing, as sometimes player parry catches attacks that don’t feel very close to the target player especially in close range where it appears that tracers closer to the attacking player’s hand seem to get caught by the parry volume instead of the tip/body of the weapon.

    Also had a thought regarding drags; what if there were a way to offload some of the drag in an attack from the release into the windup? Basically if you held a key down while in early windup for an attack, it would slow the windup time by some specified amount and this would be reflected in the windup animation. It would offload the the responsibility of mouse dragging from the release into the windup, so that you wouldn’t have to worry about the release tracers being caught by the parry volume or having weapons with absurdly long release windows. In this way you can have slowed attacks that don’t actually slow the release animation (which was often complained about being “immersion breaking” in Chivalry because of attacks appeared to “stop” midswing) but instead play with timings during windup. Could be bound to feint key but instead of tap to feint, it’s hold key to delay windup.

    Example: Taurant overhead windup time is 500ms (made up value), holding the feint key during early windup (within 100ms of initiating) increases that windup to 600ms with a slight augment to the wind up animation so that it was apparent that this had happened.

    Probably not worth doing though because complicated.

    Classes:

    Entropist
    Healing should be a targeted heal over time stream that effects one player and goes on cooldown. AoE instant heal winds up having far too much team potential.

    • In team fights, an aoe instant heal like healing gas grenade when landed on multiple players has effects far too potent on the outcome of that team fight, by increasing the effective health pool of the team by each player touched by 30.
    • Duel scenarios the Entropist who default has 90 hp, may as well have 120 hp because of the self heal. Similarly if the fight goes on for a while, the cooldown might finish giving him yet another 30 hp boost. Self healing is far too potent in both team and duel situations.
    • Harms ability diversity of individual Entropists. Who would take anything but healing gas grenade? It’s too good, and all other available choices will seem silly by comparison. Unless they were equally powerful, to which I’d question the logic behind making such overpowering abilities on a class.
    • This harms team build diversity by making Entropist a requirement for every team, or even two Entropists who are coordinating their heals.

    Taurant

    • Overhead still seems to be extremely sudden when combined with looking down and crouching, though less so than last build. Stab riposte animation seems to suffer this issue as well.

    • Alt overhead makes very little sense for a weapon in the context of the game. An upper cutting strike winds up feeling like a wasted swing type for this character because a swing starting from below is counter intuitive to hitting the head or torso (the intended target zone). Alternating from over the right to over the left shoulder variants of overheads may be a better choice in attack types. This also goes for Vigilist, Entropist, and Tinker.

    Tinker

    • Landmines will despawn if they accidentally overlap. This is unnecessarily punishing to a player who may accidentally throw them too close together. Instead of destroying the mine, make the second mine bounce or deflect off the first mine until the meshes no longer intersect, to avoid mines overlapping.

    Vigilist

    • Iron dome does not protect from aoe damage on some abilities. Entropist grenade damages anyone inside the iron dome.

    Alchemancer

    • Piercing shot: should it pierce terrain? Would this be too overpowered? Piercing shot feels too much like phoenix with the added bonus of piercing enemies if it connects, but often players are not lined up properly for the pierce portion to matter. I think it might be interesting if it could pierce geometry and was instead a short range projectile instead of a long range one.

    Additional thoughts:

    Now that spawn rock is locked, I found a new favorite ability. Entropist shove = belly bounce. Should be renamed to belly bounce as well. Amazing ability.

    Cando brought up a hysterical idea: Entropist having the ability to belly bomb from above. Essentially when up high he can jump and perform a downward smash style ability by landing directly on his belly. Might be good to add more focus on belly based combat mechanics tbh.

    Regards,
    Gauntlet



  • I’ve not tried the new patch that much, though I did notice one thing that was really irritating.

    When I attack, feint, and then parry, my character is in the cancel state for way too long before going into the parry state; it makes FTP feel slow and clunky.

    I would prefer to have RMB instantly FTP if I press it during windup, as we now have a dedicated feint button we can delay it at will if needed.


  • Developer

    @Xylvion FTP is on RMB by default so I’m not sure what you mean.


  • Developer

    Glad it’s feeling better,we’re making more major improvements to the performance that should sort out the remaining lag issues a long with fixing the desyncs, only a few cases left now.

    Feint lockout
    experimental mechanic that will be removed. It has an increasing stamina cost with repeated feints to limit it and we’ll rely on that entirely instead of preventing a cancel.

    Non-damaging tracers
    This isn’t really how it works, what we have is an angle check to prevent hits from occuring on targets that are behind you so the slashes with the widest arc will have a section at the start/end that don’t deal damage. We plan to eventually remove this section by adjusting the animations and use this to test what arc feels right without having to tweak the animations every time.
    The parry issue can indeed occur right now but this will also be sorted out.

    Windups
    We’ve stepped back from adjusting this for a little bit as the alpha server performance hasn’t been good enough to judge whether or not the values are good, will be looking more at this soon.

    Ducking
    Because of the difference in character heights this is ended up being tougher to adjust then I expected, I’ll try to get some better values in for now but we’ll most likely have to revisit this later on.

    • Dragging still has a long way to go
    • AoE heals will be balanced, currently very OP but we have a plan.
    • Because the Tinker mine is now a floating thing that already adjusts its location I can probably implement the seperation behaviour, it would certainly be more user friendly.
    • Iron dome protecting against all abilities is still WIP

    The actual file is called Belly Bounce so it is it’s true name, best ability is magic carpet 2.0 was introduced.
    I actually made the belly smash ability a while back as well, maybe we can bring it back…



  • @Vesros If I’m in windup of an attack - or transition/combo - and click rmb, I want it to directly go into parry. It doesn’t it cancels the attack, but there’s no parry, unless I press the button again. Instantly FTP = FTP occuring instantly as I press rmb.



  • @Xylvion said in General Feedback Build Alpha #07:

    @Vesros If I’m in windup of an attack - or transition/combo - and click rmb, I want it to directly go into parry. It doesn’t it cancels the attack, but there’s no parry, unless I press the button again. Instantly FTP = FTP occuring instantly as I press rmb.

    you may have keybind problems, the behavior is as expected for me



  • @Vesros will all shove abilities have active parry frames or just Taurant/Vigilist?



  • @Gauntlet wouldn’t surprise me considering the game doesn’t support half the keys on my keyboard as of right now :s


  • Developer

    @Gauntlet Right now I’m thinking only those 2 classes will have it. I enjoy the mechanic but I think it’d be too much if everyone had it.