A discussion on team damage



  • Synopsis

    Having played Chivalry for a bit today, I couldn’t help but notice how absolutely excessive team damage is. Even at 50% team damage, the amount of hits a player will take from teammates is at a frequency great enough to result in severe team damage and team kills.

    I am drawing comparisons between Chivalry and Mirage for team damage as they both handle it in the same way; a system which I find highly flawed.

    Team Damage

    • Is annoying to the player receiving team damage
      • This is self explanatory, it is no fun to be team damaged.
    • Does not flinch teammates
      • Results in players losing control of their character state because of strangely blending animations (flinch animation + attack animation). Causes confusion for player receiving team damage as they do not return to a neutral state after receiving team damage.
    • Does not prevent the strike from continuing
      • Huge pet peeve of mine in the current system is that a player can mask his attack by using his teammates character model as a visual blocker for the attack, and launching it through the teammate. This behavior turns a player into a sacrifice so that other players can score hits which are largely unreactable to receiving party as they can’t even see the windup.
    • Creates a toxic atmosphere for more casual players who are not able to control their swings at a level that is demanded with the current system
      • While in the last point I described a player who will knowingly cause team damage to secure a kill, this point differs in that a player with little experience is more likely to unintentionally cause team damage, leading to annoyance and revenge team killing or vote kicking of said new player. If you have ever played on a 0-15 rank server in Chivalry, the team damage is frightening.
    • Forces players to space themselves to avoid team damage
      • In a team based melee game one would think players sticking close to one another would be ideal. However this style of play is severely hindered by the threat of team damage.
    • Provides an avenue for griefing behaviors
      • This is even more true in Mirage, where not all characters have access to a parry to defend themselves (Alchemancer aka rat class). A dedicated team killer will have a lot of tools to harass other players with the current setup of team damage.
    • Inconsistency for what will cause team damage, and what will not
      • This is specific to Mirage where not all attacks will cause team damage. Dervish, Dash Attack, Dash Kick, and any ability really has no impact on a friendly player. Yet all player swings outside of these attacks will cause team damage. May result in confusion about the nature of team damage

    Solution

    My opinion on how team damage should be handled is one avenue previously explored by TBS in an earlier iteration of Mirage. That iteration featured player swings being halted when colliding with a friendly player mesh, and causing no team damage.
    I consider this system ideal as it corrects a few major issues with the current system

    I postulate that the proposed system would reduce:

    • Player griefing
    • Incidence resulting in vote kicking
    • Gameplay inconsistencies
    • Confusion for recipient of team damage
    • Overall player frustration

    One negative aspect would be the irritation of having your swing halted by hitting a friendly player you didn’t see and thereby putting yourself in a perilous situation. For this reason these halted friendly fire swings should have the same check regarding a player who hits an environmental object - a certain threshold of tracer should have to collide before halting the attack. In this way only attacks that are clearly intended and aimed at a friendly player are stopped, and not just any swing that accidentally tipped the edge of a friendly player model.

    Please chime in and discuss team damage in Mirage, I largely believe it will be an issue just as it is in Chivalry if left in the current state.



  • I don’t agree with the “forces players to space themself” part. It might be true for random joes, but if I play with one of my friends we can drag around and above eachother with no problems. I can do a 360 lmb when there’s 2 team mates and 1 enemy and only hit the enemy, it all comes down to drags really; in high level play this shouldn’t occur, and as it’s a skill in and of itself I think people actually have to learn how to fight together properly to do well - which may take a while because of new animations and what not.


    I also don’t think that having no team damage is a good thing. Sure a team mate might stop your attack, but that means spamming attacks near team mates is still promoted:
    Imagine a scenario when I have one ally and one enemy in front of me, the enemy on the right side and ally on the left. I use lmb, hit the enemy, then I hit my team mate with the same swing. My attack stops and I’m in a “deflect” state, the enemy is flinched, the team mate that I hit isn’t, instead he just gets a free hit on the enemy, as the enemy is flinched, it doesn’t matter that I was careless and hit him.

    I still want the attack to stop when an ally is hit, I think that’s a good way to punish the person who hits team mates - you can also use it to your advantage in a 1vX situation. I don’t think it’s a good thing to not have any team damage, I don’t like not having a friendly flinch.




  • We did try both no team damage and allies stopping attacks and it turned out more or less as Xylvion says; effectively eliminated the use of slashes and it was a strong advantage if you outnumber the opponents.

    I’d be willing to try it again as an experiment to see how it goes, though, because Gauntlet is correct; you get punished for careless teammates in Chiv and it is very easy for an experienced player to grief someone they don’t like on their team.



  • @Xylvion said in A discussion on team damage:

    Imagine a scenario when I have one ally and one enemy in front of me, the enemy on the right side and ally on the left. I use lmb, hit the enemy, then I hit my team mate with the same swing. My attack stops and I’m in a “deflect” state, the enemy is flinched, the team mate that I hit isn’t, instead he just gets a free hit on the enemy, as the enemy is flinched, it doesn’t matter that I was careless and hit him.

    In this scenario this is more ideal than the current system. In order for that LMB swing to hit your intended target, you would have to swing around your teammate first, otherwise the attack would be deflected. This does not mask your attack, you would not be hiding the animation through the back of the friendly player. This is in contrast to a player standing behind another friendly player, and using their character mesh as a way of masking the attack and throwing the tracers through their body into you, doing team damage and scoring a significant hit that was not visible.

    The “no team damage” thing isn’t something I feel particularly strongly about, but I do feel very strongly about friendly player meshes blocking friendly damaging tracers. This is something I feel needs to happen for the health of the game. Far too many players abuse the fact that you can swing through friendly players and use them as sacrificial lambs in both public and competitive scenes. Curbing this behavior is priority #1 imo.

    It is also of benefit to the 1 in 1vX because it creates a sanity check for the X where they cannot begin lawn mowing through each other to get to you as it happens in Chiv quite frequently.



  • @Gauntlet
    I think you misunderstood, in that scenario I hit the enemy first, and then the team mate right after.

    But yes, I have nothing against the attack being deflected as you hit a team mate, but I still think that team mate should be flinched and that they should take damage.