Map Balance.



  • The map balance is really ruining TO(Team Objective). Everyone who wants to gain a lot of points or unlock weapons just goes to the easier side which is generally defending team because of how the spawns are right on top of the where objectives go through. Something seriously needs to be done. I am going to stay away from Team Objective until something is done.

    I don’t come to this Forum to troll or be rude. But this needs to be addressed. Either move spawns back or put a forced 15 second respawn time for all defenders, every death. As it is right now, attackers spawn too far away, while defenders just open their eyes and there is the objective.

    If you guys have other suggesting on how to do this please tell. I know other threads have similar subjects, but I think an across the board fix for all maps is necessary. The only one that gets beaten by attackers semi frequently is the body cart one. I would love to hear your guys thoughts on my solutions.

    Goodnight for now!



  • Edit: Haha, totally responded to the wrong thread. Guess that was bound to happen with 30 tabs open.

    I assume the impossibility of offense is something which is being worked on, because it is something which has been pointed out repeatedly even by some competitive AoC teams.



  • I talked to the devs about this and they said it’s intentional because they believe as long as the attacking team comes up with enough team work, they can complete any objective with ease. I can agree with that, but coming up with that team work in public games can be pretty frustrating to do, so I think they should make an additional spawn closer to the objective for the attacking team when the objective is 50% completed or so.



  • I’ve also noticed that some map objectives are very hard for attackers (e.g.: trebuchet 3, ramming the gate down to kill the king(I really would like to do the kill the king objective more often…but most games(~90%) end before the gate is rammed down)). Destroying the king’s gate is very hard for many reasons:
    -2 ballistas
    -2 tar bowls
    -defender spawn right on top, yours a mile away
    -you have to stand defenseless at the ram and do the knock knock kill me sound

    I’ve only seen the gate go down if mason is far superior.
    …and I don’t think that teamwork is a valid argument here, because if the defenders use teamwork the attackers may use all the teamwork they want and would have no chance at all.



  • The only 2 maps where I really find this a problem are Battleground (think that’s what it’s called) and the trebuchet 3 on the ‘Sorrow’ map. I think I’ve had an equal number of defeats and victories on other maps while playing attacker.

    Personally, I always go on the attacking team, unless team balance prohibits me to do so. I just find it far more fun to complete the objectives rather than defend them.

    @Falc:

    I’ve also noticed that some map objectives are very hard for attackers (e.g.: trebuchet 3, ramming the gate down to kill the king(I really would like to do the kill the king objective more often…but most games(~90%) end before the gate is rammed down)). Destroying the king’s gate is very hard for many reasons:
    -2 ballistas
    -2 tar bowls
    -defender spawn right on top, yours a mile away
    -you have to stand defenseless at the ram and do the knock knock kill me sound

    You have a catapult. Archers can easily take down the persons on the ballistas and I have rarely seen the tar bowls being used effectively. Always someone that uses them way to early.



  • In Stonehill, battering the gate is a little difficult but killing the king is far more difficult.
    In Dark Forest, getting the wagon past the second objective is extremely difficult.
    In Battlegrounds, getting the wagon past 75% is extremely difficult.
    In Stoneside, getting trebuchet 3 is extremely difficult.

    If you can team work enough on attacking teams, you can complete these objectives. It’s just too frustrating to do so most of the time.



  • @SOC:

    In Stonehill, battering the gate is a little difficult but killing the king is far more difficult.
    In Dark Forest, getting the wagon past the second objective is extremely difficult.
    In Battlegrounds, getting the wagon past 75% is extremely difficult.
    In Stoneside, getting trebuchet 3 is extremely difficult.

    If you can team work enough on attacking teams, you can complete these objectives. It’s just too frustrating to do so most of the time.

    Agreed on all of these, killing the king becomes running down long straights, while 5-6 archers launch volleys at you, WHILE vanguards are stabbing you. And I get the point that they want teamwork to overcome the defense. But all defense has to do is spawn, run into the crow kill one, rinse and repeat.

    I think a spawn delay of 15 seconds every death for defenders will help the attackers actually gain a foot hold. It is too far of a run for attackers to adequately keep up moment of an attack. Now if I had 10 friends all on skype, I bet we could coordinate a sick attack. Unfortunately I only ever have 3 at most on skype, so it doesn’t work.



  • Just did battlegrounds again. Can not get it past 75%. That level’s defender spawns is broken.



  • @Chuckdatass:

    @SOC:

    In Stonehill, battering the gate is a little difficult but killing the king is far more difficult.
    In Dark Forest, getting the wagon past the second objective is extremely difficult.
    In Battlegrounds, getting the wagon past 75% is extremely difficult.
    In Stoneside, getting trebuchet 3 is extremely difficult.

    If you can team work enough on attacking teams, you can complete these objectives. It’s just too frustrating to do so most of the time.

    Agreed on all of these, killing the king becomes running down long straights, while 5-6 archers launch volleys at you, WHILE vanguards are stabbing you. And I get the point that they want teamwork to overcome the defense. But all defense has to do is spawn, run into the crow kill one, rinse and repeat.

    I think a spawn delay of 15 seconds every death for defenders will help the attackers actually gain a foot hold. It is too far of a run for attackers to adequately keep up moment of an attack. Now if I had 10 friends all on skype, I bet we could coordinate a sick attack. Unfortunately I only ever have 3 at most on skype, so it doesn’t work.

    Spawn delay is how this problem of “defender spawn much closer to objective spawn than attacker spawn” is solved in many games and I kind of like it…because you have to compensate the ~10 sec the attackers have to run each time a bit.

    @siegfried: the catapult on stonehill is quite useless, because it’s so close to the enemy spawn and right in the face of 2 ballistas and every enemy archer…you get maybe 1 shot of…if you are lucky^^ and actually archers are quite bad against ballistas…not because they can’t kill the gunners but because they are dead the moment they aim at the ballista.



  • @SOC:

    In Stonehill, battering the gate is a little difficult but killing the king is far more difficult.
    In Dark Forest, getting the wagon past the second objective is extremely difficult.
    In Battlegrounds, getting the wagon past 75% is extremely difficult.
    In Stoneside, getting trebuchet 3 is extremely difficult.

    If you can team work enough on attacking teams, you can complete these objectives. It’s just too frustrating to do so most of the time.

    Regaring the map Hillside.
    The only reason Trebuchet 3 is hard to get, is that the attacking team always tries to get it last.
    If you get 3 and 1 first, the remaining 2 trebuchets are easy to get. It’s all about tactics and actually trying to outmaneuver the defending team instead of trying to push them back.
    Try to send a small group of people to trebuchet 3 immediately at the same time as the other group takes trebuchet 1 and you’ll get a feel of how easy it actually is when you’re organized.



  • I think though some defender spawn is worth it, though I’m not sure it has to be too long since there isn’t a super clear defender advantage in terms of the way the maps are set up in most TOs.

    I do notice a lot though when objectives etc roll a touch too close to defender spawn points it gets much more difficult to make headway, you can’t ever seem to make a dent in the defenders. If you try to go a touch slower and cautiously but you may kill your way in but the defenders just respawn in waves and can easily penetrate any forward progress you’ve made at them (thinking throne room D). If you go to fast you can sometimes get a few rush kills and the like but chances are you really just get swarmed down.

    On the other hand, dark forest defending the sluice gates and king’s family is kind of rough. I haven’t seen the defenders win on those too often. I think part of the reason is that the choke points are too close to the front of the map. Typically the attackers are all piled in at the start of the next section if they are going to make it, so they are immediately off and running through choke points. Even if defenders immediately f1, it is still a pretty tense race to actually get in position and try to lock the chokes down.

    In any event, I hope devs are able to grab w/l stats and heat maps for deaths to identify these points on the TO maps.

    Still my biggest problem with them are frame rates, generally can’t play on them when the servers fill up.



  • Yeah a spawn delay is definitely needed, and maybe only for certain section. Or redesign the spawn locations. And 64 player servers make the poorness of the spawns stick out even more :(



  • Ok! I noticed on smaller games IE like 8 vs 8 it is much more doable. So if they get stats they may be skewed due to the smaller games stats. But on 32 player servers and up, it is as bad as I said. So now it is up to the devs to respond to that.



  • objective is normally my favorite mode in shooters or whatever. There is seriously only 1 map that seems remotely balanced for pub play though and that’s the one with the sluice gates. The other other maps just end up with the attackers getting to a point where 80% of their gameplay is running far from their spawn point and dying, rinse and repeat.

    The map where the player becomes the king? Seriously? The defense spawns right there. An attacker has to go like 4 kills to 1 to make headway. That map only gets won by the attackers if they clearly outclass the defenders.

    This game should be balanced around pub play for the most part too. You can always put out tournament maps or whatever but who do you think is mostly buying the game? Who do you think fills up the servers? Not people that want to go pro at it. People that have some time to kill and want to have fun. I don’t really see a reason to log on anymore now that the newness has worn off.



  • @UnfriendlyBG:

    objective is normally my favorite mode in shooters or whatever. There is seriously only 1 map that seems remotely balanced for pub play though and that’s the one with the sluice gates. The other other maps just end up with the attackers getting to a point where 80% of their gameplay is running far from their spawn point and dying, rinse and repeat.

    The map where the player becomes the king? Seriously? The defense spawns right there. An attacker has to go like 4 kills to 1 to make headway. That map only gets won by the attackers if they clearly outclass the defenders.

    This game should be balanced around pub play for the most part too. You can always put out tournament maps or whatever but who do you think is mostly buying the game? Who do you think fills up the servers? Not people that want to go pro at it. People that have some time to kill and want to have fun. I don’t really see a reason to log on anymore now that the newness has worn off.

    To be honest I am just on duel servers getting better at 1 v 1. But yeah the balance for 32 player games is bad atm :(



  • @UnfriendlyBG:

    objective is normally my favorite mode in shooters or whatever. There is seriously only 1 map that seems remotely balanced for pub play though and that’s the one with the sluice gates. The other other maps just end up with the attackers getting to a point where 80% of their gameplay is running far from their spawn point and dying, rinse and repeat.

    The map where the player becomes the king? Seriously? The defense spawns right there. An attacker has to go like 4 kills to 1 to make headway. That map only gets won by the attackers if they clearly outclass the defenders.

    This game should be balanced around pub play for the most part too. You can always put out tournament maps or whatever but who do you think is mostly buying the game? Who do you think fills up the servers? Not people that want to go pro at it. People that have some time to kill and want to have fun. I don’t really see a reason to log on anymore now that the newness has worn off.

    Exactly my opinion. I would bet that if 2 high skill clans fought each other over the king’s gate, they wouldn’t even get close to ramming it down. My advice: reduce the time you need to ram the gate by 25-33%. Or increase the time for that mission by 25%. I’m rank 21 now and I have only seen the king objective four times(and I have played all maps about the same). In a perfectly balanced world the king would die every second game (read: the attackers win) but most of the time the defenders win long before the gate is down. And imho the king objective is the most fun…please implement it in more maps :)



  • @MinorityMats:

    @SOC:

    In Stonehill, battering the gate is a little difficult but killing the king is far more difficult.
    In Dark Forest, getting the wagon past the second objective is extremely difficult.
    In Battlegrounds, getting the wagon past 75% is extremely difficult.
    In Stoneside, getting trebuchet 3 is extremely difficult.

    If you can team work enough on attacking teams, you can complete these objectives. It’s just too frustrating to do so most of the time.

    Regaring the map Hillside.
    The only reason Trebuchet 3 is hard to get, is that the attacking team always tries to get it last.
    If you get 3 and 1 first, the remaining 2 trebuchets are easy to get. It’s all about tactics and actually trying to outmaneuver the defending team instead of trying to push them back.
    Try to send a small group of people to trebuchet 3 immediately at the same time as the other group takes trebuchet 1 and you’ll get a feel of how easy it actually is when you’re organized.

    Not true. I always rush 3 and tell my team to ninja it as soon as possible, but then the defenders just rush to it because they see the health bar going down and respawn right next to it.



  • TO needs to be more balanced. I can’t really think of any UE3 games with spawn delay so I seriously doubt Torn Banner will ever attempt to code that in themselves. Hopefully the devs will make an objective attempt to balance these maps though because TO has the potential to be a lot of fun. Right now, the only fun I have in TO is on the defending team because it’s so easy and makes me feel really good about myself. ;P



  • The more I play…. The map where you have the sluice gates/kill the family is so awesome. Its really well balanced. The game is by far at its best on this map. It outclasses the other TO maps so bad. I wish the other ones were that good.



  • @Chuckdatass:

    The map balance is really ruining TO(Team Objective). Everyone who wants to gain a lot of points or unlock weapons just goes to the easier side which is generally defending team because of how the spawns are right on top of the where objectives go through. Something seriously needs to be done. I am going to stay away from Team Objective until something is done.

    I don’t come to this Forum to troll or be rude. But this needs to be addressed. Either move spawns back or put a forced 15 second respawn time for all defenders, every death. As it is right now, attackers spawn too far away, while defenders just open their eyes and there is the objective.

    If you guys have other suggesting on how to do this please tell. I know other threads have similar subjects, but I think an across the board fix for all maps is necessary. The only one that gets beaten by attackers semi frequently is the body cart one. I would love to hear your guys thoughts on my solutions.

    Goodnight for now!

    Thje problem is that the unly way to unlock weapons is to get kills. So people just go on killing sprees.

    As to a balance issue I have. I dont think you should be able to attack while pushing the carts. You just have a big wall of people standing next to a cart and it magically moves forward. There should be an animation like with the ballista or something. So you have people pushing the cart (actually pushing it) and people guarding them


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