Biggest gameplay flaw right now: Overall game speed



  • Hey,

    I like games the most where you have great pace and possibilites regarding movement and a high skill ceiling. Being able to dynamically use many movement options is just fun and speed plays a very big part here.

    Right now, the movement speed is incredibly slow, as is the attack speed. That just isn’t fun. It limits what you can do in combat, defensive and offensive.

    The second “speed” thing is cooldowns. Cooldowns in “shooter” games (yes I know it is not a shooter per se) are just not a good mechanic. Again it slows down the game extremely and removes the option for competent players to abuse every ability to its full potential, again lowering the skill ceiling. The biggest problem with it is that it limits your movement heavily and therefore makes moving (especially in combat) undynamic.



  • @Home I have to disagree on the cooldown statement. Cooldowns are meant to keep abilities in check and not make the game too spammy. To draw a direct comparison, look at Overwatch. Imagine if McCree’s stun grenade, Mei’s ice case, Tracer’s time lapse, etc, etc, didn’t have cooldowns. It would lead to uncoordinated chaos with zero sense of direction or approach. The thing that I WILL say about cooldowns are that some of them can be tweaked for the greater good of the game.



  • The cooldowns were a lot shorter in an earlier stage of the alpha, but that became really spammy.



  • If anything I’d say strengthen the abilities and increase the cooldown a bit.



  • There is very much high-pace movement in this game, arguably moreso than chiv. It’s a bit harder to happy-feet in this game, but the mini-dodges you can do and the many abilities like carpet give you plenty of movement options.

    Vypress dash attack, for example, is actually my favorite ability I think. If you familiarize yourself with the range of all the weapons, you can use the ability at the right moment to avoid their attack, and then strike back quickly. That’s just one example of many movement abilities classes have to offer, it’s really a matter of dumping more hours into the game.

    I definitely understand you from a melee standpoint, sometimes things just really feel off regarding windup/release times. I’m sure you’ve tried all the classes by now, but Vypress seems to be what you’re looking for. Her attacks are pretty quick, her combo times are super quick and she has a lot of utility in her kit.

    Pretty sure having cooldowns INCREASES the skill cap, rather than decrease. Not sure where you going with that one.



  • If there were no cooldowns, the combat would really only be about the abilities. They’re only a compliment to the melee. They’re not the entire show.



  • I agree with having cooldowns, however I feel that some of them are a bit too lengthy. Take the Vypress’s dash attack, for example. It has a cooldown of somewhere around 25 seconds (I do not remember the exact length), and it is a crucial part of her kit. It opens up options for both engagement and escape, as well as general traversal. I would suggest a better cooldown, somewhere around 12 (the absolute minimum, any lower and it’d be really spammy) to 20 (the optimal maximum, more than that and it feels very restrictive).

    Additionally, cooldowns are persisting through death, and players will respawn with cooldowns active if they had used an ability just before death. I have noticed that sometimes I will respawn with cooldowns active even if I hadn’t used abilities before I died, which is very odd. Cooldowns should not persist through death, as it penalizes a player far too much for dying, when the death of a single player already makes a huge difference.


  • Developer

    Cooldowns were recently changed to recharge while you’re dead as we had felt it was too punishing as well, due to a bug this wasn’t the case in the alpha build however.

    Giving you all your abilities back can have some negative effects particularly in game modes like CTF where in certain maps you spawn very close to the enemies capture point.
    The alchemancer for example has a barrage ability, deals very heavy aoe damage over time with a long cooldown. If it’s reset every spawn in the worst case scenario you could see a new one 3 times as often as we intended with the cooldown.

    When this is fixed it should feel a lot better so keep an eye on this in the future and let us know if it still feels too punishing.



  • The CDs are alright, but my first impression coming from Chiv was that the overall gameplay is very slow, so I agree on that. It just feels a bit sticky for many of the attacks and movement.



  • @Mikaa said in Biggest gameplay flaw right now: Overall game speed:

    The CDs are alright, but my first impression coming from Chiv was that the overall gameplay is very slow, so I agree on that. It just feels a bit sticky for many of the attacks and movement.

    Thank you for bringing this up. This is also something I wanted to talk about in my post, but I couldn’t quite find the right words to describe it. Sticky seems to be a good description.

    The overall flow of melee combat is very slow. The weight behind strikes is great, and it makes the game feel real. However, it feels like the force of the impact isn’t coming from the speed, but more from the mass of the object. I’m going to continue to use the Vypress as an example. Vipers (as the name Vypress originates from) are snakes which strike blindingly fast. The Vypress’s attacks feel like you’ve taken a viper, and attached a lead weight to it and then allowed it to strike. For a character whose name implies speed, her attacks feel very heavy. Not as heavy as the Taurant, which is great, but her attacks really could flow faster.

    The speed of the game could likely be improved by increasing the animation speed. Right now, it feels much, much too… sticky.



  • I believe I did not make my point very clear. I agree that the game would become a chaotic spam fest when you are removing cooldowns.

    THe point I want to make is:

    It seems you want to have a very basic movement and combat system which is the core of the game, and abilites to be like a bonus.

    I would like to see a more complex and dynamic movement and combat system that does not need any bonuses.

    Imo you should not try to balance the cooldowns around the abilites, but you should try to balance the abilites around having no cooldowns so that in fact - abilities become part of the basic core gameplay.

    A high game speed would help a lot and would be needed for that to work properly.

    FOr example: Instead of having an ability that makes you invulnerable during use, it could be a dynamic fast jump that doesn’t absorb any damage but gives the player the possibility to skillful dodge attacks at the cost of energy.

    That is what I mean with higher skill ceiling. Pressing a single key on your keyboard does not require any mechanical skill, making good and successful dodgings does require mechanical skill and also you would have to take into account way more the enemy positions and what the enemy would be generally doing at that time.

    Right now Mirage looks for me like Overwatch with more close combat. It is understandable when you want to achieve that because Overwatch made a whole lot of money and it is very popular, but personally I don’t like Overwatch (played it in beta) because it got all the same weaknesses (and even more).

    That being said I believe I might be the wrong audience for this game and I understand you cannot make a game for everyone.



  • @Home said in Biggest gameplay flaw right now: Overall game speed:

    I believe I did not make my point very clear. I agree that the game would become a chaotic spam fest when you are removing cooldowns.

    THe point I want to make is:

    It seems you want to have a very basic movement and combat system which is the core of the game, and abilites to be like a bonus.

    I would like to see a more complex and dynamic movement and combat system that does not need any bonuses.

    Imo you should not try to balance the cooldowns around the abilites, but you should try to balance the abilites around having no cooldowns so that in fact - abilities become part of the basic core gameplay.

    A high game speed would help a lot and would be needed for that to work properly.

    FOr example: Instead of having an ability that makes you invulnerable during use, it could be a dynamic fast jump that doesn’t absorb any damage but gives the player the possibility to skillful dodge attacks at the cost of energy.

    That is what I mean with higher skill ceiling. Pressing a single key on your keyboard does not require any mechanical skill, making good and successful dodgings does require mechanical skill and also you would have to take into account way more the enemy positions and what the enemy would be generally doing at that time.

    Right now Mirage looks for me like Overwatch with more close combat. It is understandable when you want to achieve that because Overwatch made a whole lot of money and it is very popular, but personally I don’t like Overwatch (played it in beta) because it got all the same weaknesses (and even more).

    That being said I believe I might be the wrong audience for this game and I understand you cannot make a game for everyone.

    I agree, and even have suggested removing the one key cooldown abilities altogether. We don’t need another overwatch.

    It would be much more interactive and original to include all of the abilities into special moves associated with the weapon or class you are using and attach a stamina cost to it.

    Examples:
    Taurent-
    Whirlwind: 360 circle with mace during attack wind up. High stam cost.
    Leap attack: jump during wind up. Med stam cost.
    Boulder throw: after ranged parry, reposte to throw boulder. Med stam cost.
    Bull charge: crouch during reposte, can be delayed by pressing “S” or accelerated with “W”. High stam cost.
    Haft push: replaces parry. Pushes foe back with successful parry. Increase parry stam cost by 1.5x.

    Vigilist-
    Shield bash: after successful reposte press parry to follow up with a low dmg shield attack. If it connects, it drains opponents stamina. Low stam cost.
    Spear throw: replaces an equipment slot. Switching to equipment slot puts her into “javilin” stance. Attack to throw spear for very high ranged damage, lose ability to use spear. Can be retrieved.
    Iron dome: press parry button and 360. High stam cost. Increased duration if performed as a reposte after successful parry.

    And so on…



  • I’ve heard this a lot in Australia actually cough Goatie.
    I disagree. You’re absolutely right in saying the combat and movement feels slow. When comparing the game to Chivalry, average windup is noticeably increased and movement speed is decreased.
    But this isn’t chivalry. It wouldn’t make sense to increase movement speed, because that would decrease the effectiveness of the projectiles.
    The slow movement speed means you have to put more thought in footwork in both a melee and ranged sense.
    You can’t fix a mistake as quickly as chiv.
    Now the windups,
    This game is first hit flinch, like Mercs Mod
    Faster weapons especially feel overall slow because that’s how you balance first hit flinch. So yeah, the game feels slower than vanilla chiv, but overall, it’s relatively similar to Mercs mod, with better animations, resulting in better feinting aswell.

    I think the idea about stam cost abilities is interesting, but I prefer the way it is now. This way, it’s much easier to balance powerful abilities. Plus, it’s really great to know that “alright, i’ve got 7 seconds before I can use whirlwind” rather than “that bar is lookin like maybe i might be able to do it soon, but then will i be able to block afterwards?” I think stamina should be kept solely for melee purposes, and magic kept to it’s individual ability cooldowns, rather than a separate meter or even using stamina.



  • @Gregs0n Gotta completely disagree with you on animations being better. In their current state at least, animations in this game are far far worse than Chiv animations. I’m sure eventually the animations will be on par with chiv animations, but right now there is absolutely no way the game is “with better animations”. Feints definitely aren’t better as well. They are a lot more readable, but also a lot less punishable, making them more 1-dimensional in my opinion.

    Otherwise, I definitely agree. You make a really good point with projectiles and footspeed. I think people go into this game with the mentality that it is Chiv, but it is quite different in various ways. People really just need to dump more hours into the game in order to grasp some of these concepts. When I first started I had very similar thoughts, but the more I played the more I realized certain things.

    I also really enjoy that idea of “x amount of seconds before I can use it”. It’s just a lot better functionally for gameplay. Adding stamina costs (to abilities) to the already stamina-hungry combat would be terrible. The stamina system really shouldn’t be looked at as a resource management system, but rather a safeguard against spam abuse. Obviously you do have to manage your stam, but that just occurs naturally through the system. Stamina to me is all about preventing cheese (infinite held shield, infinite feinting, infinite jumping while parrying, etc). Seeing that abilities in this game are in no means spammable, stamina isn’t really required because they are already limited by heavy cooldowns.



  • @Vesros said in Biggest gameplay flaw right now: Overall game speed:

    Cooldowns were recently changed to recharge while you’re dead as we had felt it was too punishing as well, due to a bug this wasn’t the case in the alpha build however.

    Giving you all your abilities back can have some negative effects particularly in game modes like CTF where in certain maps you spawn very close to the enemies capture point.
    The alchemancer for example has a barrage ability, deals very heavy aoe damage over time with a long cooldown. If it’s reset every spawn in the worst case scenario you could see a new one 3 times as often as we intended with the cooldown.

    When this is fixed it should feel a lot better so keep an eye on this in the future and let us know if it still feels too punishing.

    Just to mention that if that’s what’s happening, then that Alchemancer is essentially dead for most of that time, too, which can be very debilitating to a defending team, even if they get some big abilities out of it more often (also the Alchemancer leaves behind a healing/cd reduction orb each time he dies).

    Also, if an ability is so useful that casting it more is more useful than staying alive and helping your team, then maybe the ability is a bit too strong?

    Edit: Oh hey, or here’s a solution, and you might apply this to other abilities as well: abilities that scale with charges. You know how Vypress can have three shurikens if she waits long enough? How about this: Barrage has two or three scaling tiers of damage, but the Alchemancer revives with the skill at the lowest tier. He can decide to use it right out of spawn for some damage, or he can wait the 20 or so seconds to get the (+) and cast the skill with more power, which would also be more decisive in a fight. Also, the cooldown could be asymmetrically scaled, so the first tier might take 25 seconds while the second tier takes 20 seconds more after that. I probably wouldn’t use this on too many abilities, since it’ll require different animations/effects to telegraph which effect is taking place, but it could help against respawn abuse for certain abilities, and it adds some more depth to those abilities.



  • @Axelay said in Biggest gameplay flaw right now: Overall game speed:

    @Home said in Biggest gameplay flaw right now: Overall game speed:

    Examples:
    Taurent-
    Whirlwind: 360 circle with mace during attack wind up. High stam cost.
    Leap attack: jump during wind up. Med stam cost.
    Boulder throw: after ranged parry, reposte to throw boulder. Med stam cost.
    Bull charge: crouch during reposte, can be delayed by pressing “S” or accelerated with “W”. High stam cost.
    Haft push: replaces parry. Pushes foe back with successful parry. Increase parry stam cost by 1.5x.

    Vigilist-
    Shield bash: after successful reposte press parry to follow up with a low dmg shield attack. If it connects, it drains opponents stamina. Low stam cost.
    Spear throw: replaces an equipment slot. Switching to equipment slot puts her into “javilin” stance. Attack to throw spear for very high ranged damage, lose ability to use spear. Can be retrieved.
    Iron dome: press parry button and 360. High stam cost. Increased duration if performed as a reposte after successful parry.

    And so on…

    I would like to clarify, the first part of these entries are inputs to use the special move. 360 literally means doing a 360 with your mouse, jump during wind up means pressing space while doing an attack. What do you all think of making these attacks have inputs such as that rather than a button push. I’m imagining a system similar to fighting games.



  • They had abilities use mana at first, cooldowns are better.



  • @Xylvion said in Biggest gameplay flaw right now: Overall game speed:

    They had abilities use mana at first, cooldowns are better.

    Supposedly better. We never saw a build with mana.



  • @Gauntlet remember the spam with low cooldowns? it would most likely be even worse without them.



  • Did Xylvion even read the posts in this topic?