Critical feedback on jumping changes since the last alpha...
First of all thank you for giving me two free chances to try out your game.
Second of all let me make a statement that jumping is a very critical feature in this game and i think its parkour system is one of its most fun and unique features. Also, since jumping/hopping has a cooldown, the game would feel a LOT better if there was a small icon that appeared when you jumped to indicate when exactly the cooldown will go away so you can time it better. Could be a simple tiny square with a foot icon, that appears after jumping and fills from the bottom upwards until you can jump again, then will immediatley dissapear. The key here is assisting the player in perfectly timing his jumps with the UI, so the cooldown is no longer invisible.
Now the most important thing, it seems that since the last 3 day alpha test, jumping has been restricted. You can no longer jump during parries, or during attack animations. In my opinion and others ive talked to, this results in a much more clunky feeling movement system. When one of the hallmarks of the combat in this game is the jump key, it just feels like a change that makes the game less fun, not to mention i thought this was the really unique feature about this games combat, the parkour movement system. (aside from cooldown abilities, but imo before this was so fun that it was of equal value to your flagship feature). Now you barely get to side strafe/wall climb except when being defensive, but before it felt REALLY nice to use it while in the midst of swings. The most fun way to use it was in an offensive way. The freedom of jumping before felt really, really nice. I really hope you guys revert that change. If you also add in an icon informing the player of the jump cooldown, this will draw players attention to jumping and its importance in the combat, so no need to worry about it being a feature that players get ‘too good’ at while others ignore.
Last alpha i was loving this game, i felt like i would end up enjoying it more than Chivalry, which i have 3500 hrs of pure enjoyment on. Largely the main reason why i felt the game was so good is how amazing its movement system felt, and how much it spiced up the combat. It felt like Quake meets, Chivalry, or Mirrors Edge meets Chivalry, or just something really fast paced and really fun.
I thought that, even though its core swinging and blocking maybe didnt feel as nice as Chivalry (but still good of course), and how the torso movement is not as responsive to mouse movement as it is in chivalry (for ducking attacks and matrixing), the combat overall felt much more fun than Chivalry because its wall climbing, side hopping, movement system felt so amazing to blend in with the combat. Winding up a big swing as you scale a wall to crush someone was one of the most amazing feelings in this game, and it was a common feeling last alpha. Well, not anymore. Hope ya guys change it back to how it was! (and also is in chivalry, tried and true)
TL;DR Can no longer jump/side hop/climb after/during attacks, or after/during parries. Feels wierd.
Sorry about the text wall but basically what i’m suggesting is taking off the restrictions on jumping, making it how it was during the last alpha. imo the entire feel of the combat is changed now beacuse of these restrictions and it feels weird, especially for not knowing when you can or cant hop/climb in a heated fight. I also feel longing for the moves you used to be able to do with climbing during attacks. Yeah. fingers crossed :o
jump cooldown icon can be in the center of the screen, at the bottom, or maybe very slightly left of that to be closer in line of sight of the cooldown abilities, either way works
You are absolutely correct, this will make its way back in for the update next week.
I’ll see about the jump cooldown as well, it might make sense with something we have already.
Hell YES. I didnt wanna be a jerk and say it, but now i will since you guys already agree with me, tbh this would have been a deal-breaker to me. I was dead-set on buying this before(and now am again, of course, amazing game and love the combat w/ the parkour), but now i wasnt even super keen on playing it with the way the jumping works right now, honestly my favorite thing about this game was how the combat worked alongside its parkour system hehe. I even tried to buy a beta key for 90 cents last night, luckily i kept getting errors and nothing went through until i found the key giveaway. Just to put in perspective how much more fun it was with the old movement system, heh…glad to hear you guys are already on this track, woohoo :)
By the way just to be clear, jumping already has a cooldown, which is fine, i just think it would feel better with an icon to inform you of the cooldown so you can perfectly time the hops with a visual aid (resulting in less spacebar mashing and more precisely timed presses). Anyhow, super excited for this game :)
Xylvion last edited by Xylvion
I really don’t want side-jumps during attacks again, it’s enhanced MAA cancer, nor do I want get out of jail free side-jumps while mistiming parries.
Well, if everyone has it then its not really a balance issue, and this game plays way different than chiv anyways, but i guess removing side hops during swings wouldnt be so bad, maybe, i guess… if you could still wall climb during swings/parries. But how would you make that distinction…seems like it all roots from jumping, either its restricted or its not. Why not have a poll vote on it i guess. First person ive seen thats disliked the movement system in the alpha, the 4 ppl i played the alpha with had the same sentiment as me that its side hops+parkour was the mpst fun addition from chivalry. And using it in an offensive way often, instead of only in a defensive way
Plus, right now with jumping restricted + invisible cooldown, it feels like a futile effort trying to figure out when you are able to jump during a heated fight. Xylvion if they miss-time a parry and side hop its not like you lost the fight, and why not follow them with your attack drag, or keep feinting it until you get close enough. Dodge yourself when they go for the counter attack after dodging you. I love how fast paced it was in the alpha. It also meant you were in control of the fight more, you had better chances at evading a barrage of projectiles, or surviving against multiple players if you were savvy enough with evading using wall climbing/jumping and hops
Reasons why this isnt “enhanced MAA cancer” first of all the hops are more subtle than MAA dodge, everyone can do it, it has a very fluid animation (nothing like the near-teleport of chiv maa), and its not get out of jail free because the fight isnt over yet. continue to be better than them and you will win regardless of if they hop out of the way or or not, why not fling your spell at them, and then do a wall climb to get on top of them or behind them at the same time that you are winding up an overhead
Mis-timing parries is gonna happen in this game way more than in chivalry because now you are parrying projectiles as well and everyone moves to surround you much quicker. being able to hop at all times makes this managable and fun. The really good, close fights ive had with good players during the alpha wasnt from some cool drag combo since you cant do those anymore really, and it wasnt from a cooldown spell, it was from a last moment change in the momentum of the fight from the jump system. Someone evading a slash with a hop or wall-climb at the last moment, to then kill the guy with a swing of their own, those are what the epic nail-biter edge of your seat fights were in the alpha, and they were plentiful, now that sensation is nowhere to be seen as wall climbing is an annoying struggle of cooldowns, confusing as you can jump and then block but not block and then jump. You’re waiting to return to idle just so you can jump/wall climb away from imminent death again and in the middle of a 10v10 theres no way youre going to be able to manage your jump restrictions, it seems almost random since theres always that tail end of the animation before it goes to idle that makes you think you’d be ready for jumping but you arent yet. Lots of spacebar spamming. Even more than before. Spamming it because you’re waiting for that one moment when one of the spams is going to actually cause a reaction in-game. Un-responsive game no bueno…
And uh, for muh Mirage lore, its supposed to be a low gravity planet right? Low enough gravity to hop and parkour mid-swing/parry :)
Really the way it is now just feels clunky and un-responsive with the jumps, something that is a key mechanic unique to this game shouldnt be so restricted, it really is hard trying to figure out when you can and cant jump, ive simply stopped pressing spacebar altogether during fights and its much less fun than how the game played in the alpha
I’ll gladly listen to your reasons for supporting removing it Xylvion if you have more to say besides that simple one line statement
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120 fov limit, high movement speed, side dodges while attacking, there’s no reason for any type of advanced drags in this game with all of that. If you’re going for a foot drag you mostly won’t see your enemy, they’re able to dodge around you while starting an attack. I like dragging, I hate annoying jumping around gambles.
It’s not fun to go from almost hitting an enemy and punishing them because FHF to them back-dodging being like “get rekt son, I can dodge and there’s nothing you can do about it, haha!” Then they hit you because, hue, back-dodge while you’re in release. I don’t find it fun if I start a ward strike and my enemy starts one right after, they side dodge and I’m stuck in reocvery as they just barely dodged my attack and they hit with theirs.
I don’t think it’s fun to FTP or CFTP constantly, perhaps I don’t want to combo as I’m about to hit that enemy, for whatever reason, yet they dodge my attack forcing me to combo. I don’t find missing attacks that should’ve been hit fun. I don’t find having 90% of my stamina drained when I’ve done nothing wrong particularly amusing.
You’re not going to convince me that attacks during dodge or parries during dodge are fun, I don’t think it’s fun, as I mentioned, I like dragging and stamina management, not get out of jail free cards and cheese gambles.
Just so we’re clear, I don’t mind regular jumps or wall jumps during attacks or parries, I just don’t want the dodges.
@Xylvion Mirage isnt a game about dragging though, its already severely nerfed as far as variety of torso angles are concerned, dragging isnt going to effect much about your swing, if you want that its what chivalry is for, so taking away hops during swings isnt going to change that. Not wanting to FTP or CFTP just because youre lazy or whatever seems strange. Its an essential mechanic. “get rekt son, i can dodge and there’s nothing you can do about it, haha!” but there IS something you can do about it…you can anticipate that a good player will dodge you, like i did all the time in the alpha…and youre forgetting you can dodge yourself. everyone can.
Give some insight into how you think NOT having hops is fun and has contributed to epic moments, instead of just a bunch of nitpicks about what isnt fun, cause it sounds like you just dont like the game at all lol. Most of my argument is for how fun being able to hop was. If you want to counter that, explain why no hopping during swings is actually a fun thing. Explain the intense amazing moments you’ve experienced solely due to that nerf, because most of the intense amazing moments i’ve had are because it WASNT nerfed…i’m patiently waiting… :)
at least we agree you need to be able to do regular jumps and wall climbs during attacks and parries, thats something that definitely needs to be changed back and the update can’t come soon enough
basically, instead of saying what isnt fun…tell me how the hop nerf has contributed to fun being created…what amazing moments have been caused from that nerf…
By the way i dont see how gambles exist in your mind if there is first hit flinch. You keep using all these labeling terms instead of describing what happens in-game. What happens in-game when you can hop and attack, is not random combo flailing gambles, its fast paced attack evasion, and when both parties are doing it, it gets quite intense. There are no crouching matrix lean-back attack-evade overheads in this. Thats not what kind of game it is and its too fast paced for that to even be viable even IF it did work. This games version of that WAS hopping during attacks. Felt pretty good to me and 4 others i knew, nobody was complaining about it, infact the exact reaction to discovering it was HOLY CRAP THATS AWESOME
describe an amazing edge of your seat nail biting moment in combat that happened solely because hopping during swings/parries was taken out…i’m awaiting it
either way since your only issue is with the hops i think we can agree that overall the old system was better considering how limiting the new one is. lets just go back to that and work from there…if it was made so the only jump you could do during a parry was a regular jump, even if you’re moving backwards/sideways, that would be okay i guess, though still clunky feeling. But i think being able to side hop during an attacks windup was quite amazing. Not cheap in any way because a player can clearly see you hop, and then hop themselves to evade your hop+windup, (assuming you can hop at any time, like the way it was in the alpha.)
really its just not a gamble if you are knowingly evading a strike, and having the ability to do that raises the skill ceiling
BY FAR the worst part about this though is not being able to wall climb while a swing is already in progress so im glad we agree on that and i can’t wait to be able to play the version of Mirage i came to love again with that being changed back. We can decide about side/back hops or not during attacks/parry later and it wont kill the game in my eyes if you can no longer side/back hop during attacks/parry, but right now i’m finding it hard to play as it just feels like chivalry combat except worse + cooldown abilities when before i much preferred it over chivalry combat because of the ability to scale walls in order to evade strikes, while charging up your own. fighting against players who are also doing this felt awesome. Literally Mirrors Edge meets Chivalry and you guys were on to something INCREDIBLE there.
Right now its basically parkour only to move around the map and when running away from the enemy, so it doesnt see much use except to flank someone… no more cool moves during a fight, also using it to flee feels clunky now because almost every time when you’re doing everything you can to escape danger, you’ve just parried someone and need to evade immediatley after, but you have to wait for the entire parry animation to end before you can even jump, let alone start climbing up the wall, and you’re dead. Take the opposite approach and opt to not parry so that you can climb sooner…you get hit by the one attack you needed to parry, and it cancels the climb or knocks you off and you’re still dead. A common defensive move in chivalry is jumping after missing a parry, not being able to do this anymore feels wierd especially in a game where parries are going to be missed much more often due to the fast paced nature, which is okay to miss more parries because attacks deal less damage but not okay with not being able to continue trying to evade after missing a parry because it leaves the player feeling out of control of his movements and helpless, its what feints take less stamina now for anyways, since you are having to get close to someone as well as get around their parry timing. feints are much more liberal in this game and thats a good thing because it leaves less thinking about getting around someones block timing and more thinking about landing your strike with the movement/climbing/evasion system, talking about how it was in the alpha here.
I also felt like the map design was perfect for this climbing system and the fact that you can no longer use it constantly while swinging and blocking feels like a bit of a waste in that regard, felt like a really nice fast paced Arena kind of movement and combat which suited this game very well, like i said really unique Chivalry meets Mirrors Edge kinda feel, now just because of this one change it feels sloooowwww
Well…take back what i said about feinting??? seems like stamina use for feinting has been increased since the last alpha…this is not the game it was in the last march alpha at all it feels now. Every change ive noticed has been to slow it down and clunkify it :x Seriously ive put 3500hrs into chivalry since early dec 2012 and its my favorite game and certainly the only one ive played for more than a couple hundred hours, and i was almost certain i would end up enjoying this game even more than chiv in the long-run with how cool the parkour combat was, i couldn’t even help myself from telling people about it in the chat of chivalry, how cool it felt to do these moves. But now its hard to bring myself to play it right now, even after spending 30 minutes trying to get a secondhand beta key purchase to get through just to get another chance to try it, until i found the giveaway. Now everything i loved about the combat which was its movement and freedom of action the player had is limited. See my comment above for why the way feints were balanced in the last alpha played in perfectly with its movement system.
Btw this opinion has nothing to do with some kind of MAA fantasy (referring to your original ‘enhanced maa cancer’ comment, which has no foothold here balance-wise since this is a completely different game where yes, everyone could be able to dodge and it still be fun and balanced, cause its not chivalry), i never play MAA and when i do its heater + thrusting dagger and i never dodge really. Vanguard Halberd and Knight Maul all the way for me.
Mirage isnt a game about dragging though…
Dragging might be available next beta build, who knows? Not like anything is set in stone yet.
Initiative can be lost during drags, attacking during dodges messes with the dynamics of initiative even more.
but there IS something you can do about it…you can anticipate that a good player will dodge you…
Also known as guessing, taking a chance, gambling.
Give some insight into how you think NOT having hops is fun and has contributed to epic moments, instead of just a bunch of nitpicks about what isnt fun…
This is just absurd, is it not obvious that I think it’s fun because non of the things I mentioned as anti-fun are in the game?
Explain the intense amazing moments you’ve experienced solely due to that nerf, because most of the intense amazing moments i’ve had are because it WASNT nerfed…i’m patiently waiting…
You mean the intense moments of having to actually parry instead of dodge away from my enemies in a 4v1? Are you trying to tell me that not parrying incoming attacks from 4 people is more intense than it is parrying and using footwork to get around? I don’t understand your point here.
By the way i dont see how gambles exist in your mind if there is first hit flinch.
What? Why would it not be a thing? Gambling has been used as a term in Chivarly for when you guess your enemy will feint an attack and you decide to attack yourself, even if they don’t feint. Trading!=Gambling.
describe an amazing edge of your seat nail biting moment in combat that happened solely because hopping during swings/parries was taken out…i’m awaiting it
Why are you repeating yourself? I can compare it to chivalry this time, which engagement is more exciting:
1v3 as a melee Archer, not having dodge but having to rely on footwork and good parries.
1v3 as MAA ezpz one button dodge that gets you into position with no skill required.
I’m more excited about parrying people from multiple direction, turning around and hearing the clink sound.
Right now its basically parkour only to move around the map and when running away from the enemy, so it doesnt see much use except to flank someone…
You’re doing it wrong: https://youtu.be/4erruUxxMss
You can edit your posts instead of spamming, it’s annoying to read the wall of text as it is, even more so when it’s split into multiple posts.
@Xylvion Man, literally from everything you say you dont even like this game. It’s clear you much prefer chivalry so why don’t you just play that? This is supposed to be a different experience. Your ideas go against the very fabric of what this game is… First of all, i’m doing it wrong, and then you link to a character that is designed for high mobility with extra jump abilities? Really? How about all the characters have high mobility like how it was in the alpha and it becomes actually really good again?
“What? Why would it not be a thing? Gambling has been used as a term in Chivarly for when you guess your enemy will feint an attack and you decide to attack yourself, even if they don’t feint. Trading!=Gambling.” Yes exactly, and whoever hits first, flinches the other. So there is no gamble. Like you said, Trading=Gambling, and with first hit flinch, there is no trading, so there is NO gambling. There is no guessing when your enemy will feint because you can see him feint or not feint. If you choose to guess and attack out of turn, you will know who will hit first so its up to you to decide because first hit flinch. On the other guys end, he can easily FTP if he doesn’t want to risk being flinched, if its too close for his personal skill to tell with confidence that he will flinch first. But you will always be able to know, if you are familliar with the weapon timings.
“You mean the intense moments of having to actually parry instead of dodge away from my enemies in a 4v1? Are you trying to tell me that not parrying incoming attacks from 4 people is more intense than it is parrying and using footwork to get around? I don’t understand your point here.” Yes that is EXACTLY what i’m saying. I’m saying using parkour and mini-jumps as part of your footwork is WAY more exciting gameplay! This isn’t chivalry. The game plays way better with those enabled during attacks and parries as seen in the alpha.
“This is just absurd, is it not obvious that I think it’s fun because non of the things I mentioned as anti-fun are in the game?” No because the only things you said were negative things. You can’t describe an epic moment created by this last beta change to the mobility because it hasn’t added fun to the game, its only removed it. Like i said, the most intense moments of the alpha were, for me, evading attacks and winning fights using wall jumps, climbs, and side hops, using the shield and spear class (vigilant?), every class should be mobile obviously this game is far from a realistic combat simulator and being mobile while never breaking up the swinging and parries of a fight is what made this game fun…now in the last update its gone.
The ‘intense’ moment of turning around in circles perfectly to parry everything Chivalry style is, again, a style of gameplay that belongs in CHIVALRY. Not mirage. In mirage, movement is rightfully faster. In mirage, there are more projectiles to worry about. In mirage, the lunge forward that happens when attacking is even more dramatic than in Chivalry. All of these changes work GREAT, if everyone can minijump during attack and parry, and wall climb/jump during attack and parry. Trying to parry all this Chivalry style not only doesn’t feel as fun, but it feels stale. It’s what Chivalry is about, not what Mirage is about, the style of movement we had last alpha felt extremely unique. I feel like they have gone through so many iterations they are losing their original vision with this change.
“Initiative can be lost during drags, attacking during dodges messes with the dynamics of initiative even more”
So what? If initiative can be lost during drags, then dont be so slow about them. Or don’t drag. Guess what, if you attack and he dodges and gains the initiative while winding up an attack, YOU can dodge out of the way of HIS attack too… you literally keep ignoring the fact that you can also always dodge in the alpha. You can really see your one sidedness here:
“1v3 as a melee Archer, not having dodge but having to rely on footwork and good parries.
1v3 as MAA ezpz one button dodge that gets you into position with no skill required.”
Again, comparing having no dodge to having dodge vs people that don’t have dodge. Neither of these cases apply to Mirage in any way. In Mirage, every class has dodge. Guess what, a 1v3 in Mirage while you have dodge also means the 3 you are fighting ALSO has dodge and parkour, which means YOU will miss too and likely die just the same to that 1v3 because you are outnumbered. Jeez man. You just want this game to be Chivalry. I want it to be Mirage. It better be Mirage because why would i play this game over Chivalry if it doesn’t have the awesome parkour it had in the alpha? That is the one single reason why i preferred this game over Chivalry, knowing that most other things are better in Chivalry but that the combat is on a whole higher level in Mirage because of the intensity of wall climbing while fighting, and the Dark Souls style side hops while fighting. And not slow and clunky-like, happening only in between animations. During them. All i’m gonna say on it we can leave it to the developers to decide but really all you do is keep being negative. I have described the glory that the alpha was. You haven’t described the glory that the beta IS to combat that. And you sound like you secretely just want Chivalry in your arguments, a different game entirely.
EDIT: I apologize i had no idea this was a change made only 6 days ago, the last change made. Its clear its just an experimental tryout, i thought this was more of a solidified choice since its been a whole month since the alpha i was in ended and i had no idea when the change was made. I’ve only continued to defend it because Xylvion wishes it to be a tame and slow movement experience, not at all the Mirage i grew to be obsessed with last alpha. But, i think i’m done here and its clear me and Xylvion are on opposite sides of opinion here. Though, i’ll be content with the fact that Vesros said it will be reverted next week and that Xylvion agreed that regular jumps and wall jumps/climbs should be put back during attacks/parries (regular jump happening in any direction of movement, just not turning into a hop while attacking/parrying)
id personally prefer it with the hops during attack/parry back in too, but the biggest bummer is not having the regular jumps, wall climbs, and wall jumps during attack/parry right now. i could get used to not having hops during attack/parry but jump stabs are sorely missed, for one other example. need regular jumps at least
I spent 280 hours in Mirage because I dislike it, obviously.
I said Gambling!=Trading and you even quoted it, then you say that Gambling=Trading.
You think it’s fun, you asked me what I think is fun, I think it’s fun that we don’t have attacks while dodging due to the reasons of why I don’t like attacks while dodging, there, happy? I don’t see how that’s unreasonable. You think it’s fun, I don’t. Listing things that I don’t think is fun obviously means I think it’s fun without them.
Jumping all over the place like a retard belongs to Jedi Academy, go play jedi academy instead of Mirage if you want to jump around. Cheesing around with dodges feels stale and boring while parrying one person after another makes for intense fights. As I said, we have different versions of fun, you can’t just say that my version of fun doesn’t belong in the game because your version of fun is superior. Hence why a statement like go play Jedi Academy, or go play Chivalry, doesn’t fucking matter because we’re talking about Mirage.
Of course I’m on one side of it and you’re on the other, so obviously my point of view is one sided, as is yours.
This isn’t a question about dodging to get out of range, if an enemy strafes as I’m trying to drag, then goes into a side jump while attacking, they’re gonna hit me before I can turn fast enough to hit them, there is a dragcap if you weren’t aware. If they’re not able to attack during the dodge I can hit them before they get a chance to start an attack.
Jeez man, you just want this game to be Jedi Academy, I want it to be Mirage.
i’ve never played jedi academy and its like a 15 year old game
also, why are you trying to drag, drags aren’t in mirage, its your fault if you are playing it like chivalry and being slow and dragging and they dodge out of the way while attacking and hit you. play smarter
parrying multiple attacks doesnt go away with dodges while attacking/while blocking. lol it only increases the skill ceiling even higher, you are still parrying all the attacks you could wish for if you jump into a crowd of enemies, and you can dodge on top of that to add a whole other layer of skill and ability to survive.
wth is !=, its not a typo? You know if you are trying to do the opposite of =, its =/=…
Reithur last edited by Reithur
Lets keep it civil please.
!=means the same thing as
I’ll be honest, i was triggered by the ‘MAA ‘cancer’’ comment into uncivil discourse, someone very close to me is passing from that right now with denied coverage (murrica…)even though he already spent his life savings on it and thats no way to discuss video game balance, using that language - i apologize for the text walls
in summary - both me and xylv agree - regular jumps + wall climbing during attacks and parry feels better
but as for mini-jumps during those animations, thats still debatable, there doesn’t seem to be a consensus on that specific aspect, and i can imagine it going either way on the mini-jumps and still being the fun movement i experienced in the alpha, even though i have my slight preference. i’m gonna stop posting now and i look forward to next weeks update, whatever it may be