Spear problems (not a balance thread)



  • The spear has a lot of issues that end up breaking the melee system down quickly.

    Normally, combat is a good exchange of twitch gaming, dueling tactics/strategy, and timing. A Key part of the system is blocking. You “watch the tip” of the weapon attacking you and it usually works very well.

    However, when you are up close against a spear player, particularly in first person and the near third-person views, you cannot see the spear tip. So long as the player is in a normal ready position, the spear tip rests several feet in front of them. When you are up close to melee a spear player, you cannot even see the spear tip start to stab. Similarly, if he swings, the tip of the spear goes well beyond a 180 degree arc in front of you to behind you.

    My point is, the spear shouldn’t even be able to attack up close when a player is between their spear tip and them. But, as it is currently they can not only attack you, but blocking these close attacks is entirely guess work.

    As the post title suggests, I am not saying that the spear is OP. I am just saying the spear turns the normally skill-based, realistic melee system and turns it into an unrealistic scenario that you have to guess your way out of it.

    If a minimum range were applied to the spear (which I think is necessary), players would just have to learn to kick or the spear would maybe need a buff to balance things out. In any regard, I’d like to see the spear kill players at at realistic range and this would also preserve the blocking system.



  • I think spear shouldn’t have slash attack, much like javelins. Maybe a back-end attack with small blunt damage and a little knock-back.



  • This is one of the few things War of the Roses gets better. You have to hit things with the parts of your weapon that actually damage your opponent. Unfortunately in this game, whether you whack someone with the wooden stick of your spear or slash them with the tip doesn’t seem to make a difference. I’ve always thought that weapons should have collision, so that you can’t run your body through a spear like you can in this, and someone with a spear couldn’t get so close to you without his spear doing funky stuff like colliding with your body, so as not to go through it magically. The game would be much more balanced if polearms actually had to hit with the tip, or at least greatly reduce the damage hitting with the pole does, and make it blunt. If this would underpower them, then other stats could be increased.



  • @Pierre:

    This is one of the few things War of the Roses gets better. You have to hit things with the parts of your weapon that actually damage your opponent. Unfortunately in this game, whether you whack someone with the wooden stick of your spear or slash them with the tip doesn’t seem to make a difference. I’ve always thought that weapons should have collision, so that you can’t run your body through a spear like you can in this, and someone with a spear couldn’t get so close to you without his spear doing funky stuff like colliding with your body, so as not to go through it magically. The game would be much more balanced if polearms actually had to hit with the tip, or at least greatly reduce the damage hitting with the pole does, and make it blunt. If this would underpower them, then other stats could be increased.

    I agree with you 100% here. It is a difference I didn’t notice right away but in time you come to see it is the wrench in the CMW melee system. Really, I think I still prefer this game to WotR for many other reasons, but in this regard, I liked how polearms/spears felt realistic and took considerable skill in WotR.



  • Of course it’s unrealistic, but this is one of the situations were fun gameplay trumps realism. Spears would be much harder to use than other weapons with no real benefit, so you would have to massively buff the spears to keep them viable. Do you think you would rather play against spears which can kill you before you even get close? Because that would have to happen if you want the spear to be useless at close range. If you get past a spears tip irl the spear is rendered useless….but if the tip pierces your armor you are rendered useless;)



  • @Falc:

    Do you think you would rather play against spears which can kill you before you even get close? Because that would have to happen if you want the spear to be useless at close range. If you get past a spears tip irl the spear is rendered useless….but if the tip pierces your armor you are rendered useless;)

    I’m not just saying this to contradict you, but yes. I mean, hell yes!

    Consider archers. If I get shot in the head, its over. I am ok with that. But, when I get close, I own them as I should. If the spear situation were to apply here, then arrows wouldn’t kill to the face and somehow you could melee up an arrow up close (wait, didn’t I see that in an action film once?).

    Really though, for me I’m not about realism as much as I am about the melee/blocking system working. If the spear is going to stay as it is, at least shorten it so we can see the tip to block it.



  • @chronicler:

    @Falc:

    Do you think you would rather play against spears which can kill you before you even get close? Because that would have to happen if you want the spear to be useless at close range. If you get past a spears tip irl the spear is rendered useless….but if the tip pierces your armor you are rendered useless;)

    I’m not just saying this to contradict you, but yes. I mean, hell yes!

    Consider archers. If I get shot in the head, its over. I am ok with that. But, when I get close, I own them as I should. If the spear situation were to apply here, then arrows wouldn’t kill to the face and somehow you could melee up an arrow up close (wait, didn’t I see that in an action film once?).

    Really though, for me I’m not about realism as much as I am about the melee/blocking system working. If the spear is going to stay as it is, at least shorten it so we can see the tip to block it.

    You cannot simply shorten the spear, otherwise you get people complaining that they were hit even the tip of the spear was not even close to them. I’d much rather have the tip clip unrealisitcally through than have to guess were it really is….don’t know if you played AoC or not, but that was the part i hated most about AoC: not seeing were the “real” weapon is…you got hurt even the weapon didn’t hit you on your screen. Though it was a lag issue (I think) in AoC it was VERY frustrating.

    But to get back to the point: you can block the spear even if you don’t see the tip so I don’t really see a problem there besides the aforementioned realism.

    And I don’t think you can compare a spear with a bow…one is a melee weapon like yours the other is a ranged weapon.



  • @Falc:

    Of course it’s unrealistic, but this is one of the situations were fun gameplay trumps realism. Spears would be much harder to use than other weapons with no real benefit, so you would have to massively buff the spears to keep them viable. Do you think you would rather play against spears which can kill you before you even get close? Because that would have to happen if you want the spear to be useless at close range. If you get past a spears tip irl the spear is rendered useless….but if the tip pierces your armor you are rendered useless;)

    Thats actually exactly what I want to happen



  • I have had this problem too! Vangaurd weapons shouldnt be able to reliable damage close in players. Their spear tip is 2 feet behind me, yet now it is magically in my skull.



  • That sounds like a balance nightmare.

    Gameplay trumps realism here.



  • @Zealot:

    That sounds like a balance nightmare.

    Gameplay trumps realism here.

    Isn’t this supposed to be a realistic First person Slasher though?



  • @Mashuu:

    @Zealot:

    That sounds like a balance nightmare.

    Gameplay trumps realism here.

    Isn’t this supposed to be a realistic First person Slasher though?

    What exactly is realistic about this game… at all?



  • I’ve noticed this too, you can be chest-to-chest with someone and they can still stab you. Like…do their arms extend 5 feet backwards or something? Go go gadget mechanical arms? This issue and the parrying one I made a thread about are my only complaints, and both of these are combat related. So hopefully, in the future, the combat gets some real fine tuning.



  • I run into this problem a lot and it can be a bit frustrating try to get up close as a MaA only to get impaled with the center of a spear. I almost think switching the Vanguard’s leaping sprint ability with the MaA dodge might make a bit more sense. (Vanguard’s dodge backwards for space and MaA can run and thrust for more power).

    I don’t find the spear mechanic to be a huge upset. It’s more silly than anything. It’s like when you’re trying to sneak up behind someone, only to get konked on the head as they rear back to attack the person in front of them.



  • I think the suggestion that changing the spear would be a nightmare is too strong a reaction. WotR managed to implement this and the result is actually quite good when the spear/polearm has a minimum effective range. It does feel more realistic to get owned by a spear/polearm on the outside and to have an advantage once you manage to dodge/block your way to the inside.



  • Even though the OP says it’s not a balance thread, it really is. It boils down to the spears/polearms not really having a minimum range, which does cause loads of problems. Why bother using a weapon with shorter reach when longer reach will never really go against your favor?

    If spears/polearms had a threshold where you’d start hitting with the shaft/blunt end which reduced effectiveness it would completely destroy the class. Because, y’know, they don’t have a secondary weapon or a kick to get people off them. At all. Right?



  • It boils down to the spears/polearms not really having a minimum range, which does cause loads of problems. Why bother using a weapon with shorter reach when longer reach will never really go against your favor?

    That suggests all long ranged weapons are superior to short ranged weapons, which is really not the case in my view. It’s fairly easy to close distance if you actually try to and even every attack you make forces you to move forward even if you’re walking backwards, and whilst kicks are an effective tool for creating distance, it is extremely limited in its use. I’ve destroyed so many long ranged weapon users with the Norse sword because of how fast and damaging it is despite it being short. Once I close that gap (which is usually done in just a single parry on my end) I can stab you twice in your sides and take you down in less than a second. I’ve yet to meet a player at all that has consistently kept me away from them.



  • I think a decent middleground would be to have the spear simply have damage reduction on a close enemy (like 25-50%) when the tip couldn’t possibly hit the player. That would be an incentive for vanguards to keep their distance while not having the weapon totally useless up close.



  • @chronicler:

    I think the suggestion that changing the spear would be a nightmare is too strong a reaction. WotR managed to implement this and the result is actually quite good when the spear/polearm has a minimum effective range. It does feel more realistic to get owned by a spear/polearm on the outside and to have an advantage once you manage to dodge/block your way to the inside.

    You know i like to see that too… but mentioning wotr, and I remember how they stuffed up the balance, and i don’t want to go down that path again. Wotr is just a bad bad example.



  • @chronicler:

    The spear has a lot of issues that end up breaking the melee system down quickly.

    Normally, combat is a good exchange of twitch gaming, dueling tactics/strategy, and timing. A Key part of the system is blocking. You “watch the tip” of the weapon attacking you and it usually works very well.

    However, when you are up close against a spear player, particularly in first person and the near third-person views, you cannot see the spear tip. So long as the player is in a normal ready position, the spear tip rests several feet in front of them. When you are up close to melee a spear player, you cannot even see the spear tip start to stab. Similarly, if he swings, the tip of the spear goes well beyond a 180 degree arc in front of you to behind you.

    My point is, the spear shouldn’t even be able to attack up close when a player is between their spear tip and them. But, as it is currently they can not only attack you, but blocking these close attacks is entirely guess work.

    Do you have any idea how difficult it is to play this game with a spear? You only have a tiny area where you actually attack which is extremely easy to avoid, an easy to block with both shield and a weapon as well. The stabbing attack is not only slow but also the damage they do is only moderate. Nerfing spears will make them completely useless and nobody will use them anymore except to unlock the spears achievements.

    As the post title suggests, I am not saying that the spear is OP. I am just saying the spear turns the normally skill-based, realistic melee system and turns it into an unrealistic scenario that you have to guess your way out of it.

    If a minimum range were applied to the spear (which I think is necessary), players would just have to learn to kick or the spear would maybe need a buff to balance things out. In any regard, I’d like to see the spear kill players at at realistic range and this would also preserve the blocking system.

    Do you have any idea how hard it is to use spears as they are now? The area you hit with stabbing is tiny, and extremely easy to dodge, the stabbing attacks aren’t particulary fast either, and can easily be blocked with a shield, or a weapon since because this is a stabbing attack the tip of the weapon is almost always in the center of your screen. If they where to actually implement something like this they should also buff the spear with a much faster speed and a lot more damage. And when that happens, people start complaining that the spear is too fast, or that the spear can one-hit kill them.


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