Auto-Fail



  • “I’m proud of what we fought for, until I fought so hard I was forced to fight against it.” – Chivalry Player.

    This game is tremendously good. Well played, Torn Banner.

    Auto Balance brought something to this game that needs not be here. If you’re doing well and sincerely leading your team, you get autobalanced to the other side. Not only do you penalize the best player by immediately making him a loser, but you also bring the game to a stalemate. Case in point: My friend and I played a recent round and were switched six times over. Six times. I was so damn confused to which team to attack, that I actually started feigning blows because I knew I’d be switched after landing a killing blow. Why kill my own team mates when a round later I will be rallying them to a victory?

    Solution: The most recent person to join should be auto balanced. Not a complete solution, but a start. Lu Bu should never be moved over to the other side, he will only continue to thrash the opponents presented to him.

    Proposal: Auto select the last person to join a team. Put them on the other side and let them fight for victory. Those that have been playing all map should not have to be punished for pushing a victory. Typically, the most recent person to join the game has offset the balance. Potentially, the worst person on the team (newly joined) can offset the balance of a match by moving the MVP to the other team. When playing Team Objective, this isn’t OK. That person EARNED the right to win. Either the newcomer will upset this victory, or he will lose accordingly.

    Advanced idea? Add a chain. I’m not here to play with Joe Pub. I’ve been playing games too long to give a shit about the guy who just bought a Lenovo and thinks that 3’s are an acceptable replacement for E’s (l33t mofo). I’m here to play with my friends. I bought a four pack to play with my friends. Tie me to them. I don’t mind joining another team if I have team mates there. Autobalance should be tied to “tied-friends.” Meaning, if my buddy joins a server, I should be able to leash him. If he switches, I switch. The reality of modern gaming is most people don’t play alone. Let us tag people we play with, auto switch accordingly. The higher the fun factor, the more of your game gets sold. I love playing against my friends, but I’ll speak for most when I say that we only play to play WITH our friends. Add a leash system.

    Autobalance has created an environment where you cannot push forward on Team Objective maps. I fought with and against my friends, all of us hitting 50+ kills and less than 10 deaths. We loved the bloodshed and the fighting, but the objective portion was entirely lost due to the fact that we were switched mid-swing to the other side.



  • I think it could be fairly easily solved by just making the system never swap the same person twice as long as there’s someone on the team who hasn’t been swapped once. If someone really doesn’t want to have their team swapped they’ll have the option of changing back eventually (usually, it’s rare for games to have nobody leaving for long stretches of time). I have seen the same person be swapped to balance teams three times in a row before.



  • @Reekon:

    Autobalance has created an environment where you cannot push forward on Team Objective maps. I fought with and against my friends, all of us hitting 50+ kills and less than 10 deaths. We loved the bloodshed and the fighting, but the objective portion was entirely lost due to the fact that we were switched mid-swing to the other side.

    I think your last point is a symptom of the objectives being somewhat lopsided and very linear.

    The objectives devolve into zerging to have much chance of success, and the defender almost always has a strong positional advantage (shorter distance to the objective & more defensible positions)

    There are a few exceptions to this, but not nearly enough.



  • Hey, I completely agree. Objectives are lopsided and linear.

    Torn Banner managed to take a simple concept and change it into something interesting and new: Destroy villages. Kill the king. Drop oil on a knight. Set fires to buildings. I think they’re on the right track. The problem is, I think the games create an equilibrium where no one can win based on two quality players. Auto balance destroys the game because it isn’t balance, it’s “move the top player,” which is a recipe for disaster.

    The top player is the top because he’s leading his team. Don’t penalize him by switching him to the losing team. He earned his place, let him enjoy his victory (if he can earn it).



  • Wait, is the top player being forcefully switched regardless of whether he/she is the most recently connected or not?



  • What the game does right now is try to balance the points of both teams – which means if the points is heavily favoring one time it’ll probably move the top players of the other team.

    If you have any suggestions on what you’d like to see, we’d love to hear it.



  • We should move this to ideas forum and start up some discussion.

    While it makes sense on paper to try and balance out points, it often means that the most skilled players suffer they’re own hard work most often.

    I think points=/= skill. At least not always.

    I think team swap should be random. It shouldn’t ever single out a particular type of player for anything. Just like how random people join a game, so to should this.



  • Oh dear, as a frequent 400+ pointer, I sense being switched almost every single round. I wonder if the King could be unintentionally switched because of this system…

    I really think going with the standard LIFO method, but making it so you can only be switched forcefully once per round, is better.



  • I hate being the victor of lopsided matches. In fact, I don’t like being the team overwhelming the other. I like being outnumbered and I like trying to fight my way out of a situation. The way the game is staged right now, I’d suggest letting it play out. If a team is going down, skillfully or imbalanced, let it go. That’s OK. There is absolutely nothing more infuriating than being balanced to the other side to die to overwhelming forces– which is usually the case. The winning team doesn’t quit.

    If you’re going to autobalance a team, do it once and leave it be. My argument is against the continuance of autobalance where you have to hit Tab every round so you understand which team to stab (sorry Neal. Hah).

    If a team exits the battle forcing an autoswitch situation (an outnumbered team), don’t penalize the team that did so well they forced the opposition to quit.



  • @Martin:

    Oh dear, as a frequent 400+ pointer, I sense being switched almost every single round. I wonder if the King could be unintentionally switched because of this system…

    I really think going with the standard LIFO method, but making it so you can only be switched forcefully once per round, is better.

    King can’t be switched although the AB will try to do so and will count it as a switch and will subsequently cause teh game to be unbalanced. Tis a bug and will be fixed.

    The thing with LIFO + once per round, what if you run out of players to switch (highly unlikely – but still a possible scenario).



  • @b3h47pte:

    What the game does right now is try to balance the points of both teams – which means if the points is heavily favoring one time it’ll probably move the top players of the other team.

    If you have any suggestions on what you’d like to see, we’d love to hear it.

    Problem with that is the attacking team usually has far more objective points than the defending team, so it’ll pretty much always swap the top scoring player off of the attacking team and the lowest scoring player off of the defending team. And it makes players feel punished for doing well.

    I think the two most “fair” way to do autobalance is swapping the first player to die on the team with more players - completely unbiased, though it does obviously make it more likely for players who die a lot to be swapped - and the previously mentioned LIFO, only swapping someone twice if everyone else on the team has been swapped once.

    I think that no matter what the system should attempt to swap dead players over living ones, though, and it should take a good 20 seconds of waiting for someone to die before it swaps a living player. Nothing quite as bad as being in the middle of a fight and suddenly evaporating into nothingness and switching sides.



  • @b3h47pte:

    What the game does right now is try to balance the points of both teams – which means if the points is heavily favoring one time it’ll probably move the top players of the other team.

    I really don’t think this is a good system, as it will usually move the player who have done the most work for his/her team, so now suddenly, all his/her hard work seem wasted. I think the top player in the team should never be forced to change team.
    Also, moving a player who is in the middle of an objective doesn’t seem like the best idea… I was destroying a trebuchet, and then forced to respawn.

    EDIT: I think it would also be a good idea to give all the players in the team a few seconds to volunteer to swap team, this can allow friends playing together who got splitted up a chance to get back on the same team.



  • @SlyGoat:

    I think the two most “fair” way to do autobalance is swapping the first player to die on the team with more players - completely unbiased, though it does obviously make it more likely for players who die a lot to be swapped - and the previously mentioned LIFO, only swapping someone twice if everyone else on the team has been swapped once.

    I think that no matter what the system should attempt to swap dead players over living ones, though, and it should take a good 20 seconds of waiting for someone to die before it swaps a living player. Nothing quite as bad as being in the middle of a fight and suddenly evaporating into nothingness and switching sides.

    I agree with other of these ideas, Balancing via points in the TO game is useless, since the teams don’t get score the same way. Swapping dead players, or at least wait until the player is dead before swapping would reduce a lot of frustrations.



  • All the auto balance needs to do is….

    **Team 1 has 12 players

    Team 2 has 10 players

    Swap the last person to join Team 1 to Team 2.**



  • It is a bit more complex than just autobalance, but I feel you should put the ranks to good use.

    A game I used to play a while back had a balancing system that would try to keep both teams at a similar rank sum. At the start of each match, it would switch players around with the intention of bring the rank sum of each team as close as possible.

    It would stop once the match started, and would go back into effect once the teams got uneven, autobalancing the person who would bring the rank sums as close as possible.



  • @Po1ymorph:

    All the auto balance needs to do is….

    **Team 1 has 12 players

    Team 2 has 10 players

    Swap the last person to join Team 1 to Team 2.**

    This is what has to be done. There should be no balance based on point or whatsoever. So NO skill balance, ONLY number balance. Noone should be punished for beeing good. This is totally demotivating.

    If the map changes, everything will be mixed up again anyway.



  • @Po1ymorph:

    All the auto balance needs to do is….

    **Team 1 has 12 players

    Team 2 has 10 players

    Swap the last person to join Team 1 to Team 2.**

    +1

    A Stack for each team that tracks entry order; simplest & best solution. 4 lines of code; job done.

    • Numerical balance is all that matters.
    • The most recent player to join a team has the least amount of time invested in the team’s success, and thus will be frustrated least by being the one switched.
    • It offers a marginal advantage to those who have the fastest loading times during map transitions, as they’ll be first players to join a team & thus very rarely be forced to swap - but in the grand scheme of things that’s a very minor issue.


  • I like it in Last team Standing
    it evens out the game,
    so each team wins along the way!

    In TO, the last guy who joined.



  • dont get me wrong i like auto balance but i keep geting put on the diffent team from my mates half way thru a game hope this can be fixed with party play or somthing thanks



  • Yesterday while playing LTS, I was switched 3 times in the game! First mason is rolling, and I am in first place with the most points by 80 or so. Then I get moved to Agatha, and Agatha starts rolling. THEN! I get moved backed to Mason where we end up winning as Mason. I don’t know if I made that big of a difference or if Key players kept getting switched to mess up the teams.

    But I think it should just locked on join, so you can only join the team with less people. And like it has been suggested, but newest people should get switched if need be.


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