Community Question - Tactical Weapons


  • Developer

    Community Question!

    What types of tactical weapons would you like to see in the game? A tactical weapon as we’re interested in here is one that allows a player to support his team in a way that cannot be done by a “standard” weapon. Examples of these might be the firepot or smokepot from Age of Chivalry. How can you as each class, support your team? How can the game be fun and interesting through the use of these tactical weapons for people who struggle with the standard combat system?

    Note: The weapons we are looking for should be TACTICAL in nature, not just an awesome/cool weapon that’s sole function is to hurt people. These weapons won’t be for everyone, just for those players who are interested in teamplay and helping outside of the standard combat mechanics.



  • Smoke pots are a must IMO.

    Some kind of rampart construction would be cool - something that’s quick to set up and blocks a fair amount of space, taken out in a couple hits but allows you to cut off narrow paths, create chokepoints and provide cover from archers.

    Supportive weapons are somewhat difficult for me to imagine in a “mostly realistic” medieval game, since there are no tanks to repair, no high tech surveillance gadgets and the like, no magic; equipment of the period is almost solely designed to inflict or prevent damage. I mean, there are certainly other, “supportive” military roles, but it’d be pretty difficult to simulate a class that forges and repairs armor/weaponry, cares for horses, etc. I’m pretty sure it’d take more than an entire game duration to reforge a dagger.

    Of course if the devs ultimately decide screw it, gameplay isn’t worth sacrificing for stricter realism, there are always things like the long discussed Commander class who just shouts at his team to give them temporary buffs.

    Or maybe a whip; whip a teammate, it deals minor damage and makes them run faster :D



  • Plant traps in places.

    Like a bear trap or spikes on the ground that deal a small amount of damage but slows movement for a short period of time (in combination with archers firing at the poor sob)

    Or the ability to place oil on the ground, that can be ignited for a short period of time by other teammates with a firepot, causing the same effects of the firepot to enemies in a small area.

    Also, the ability to carry some munitions. Like, for example 3 bags of “supplies” that carry a small amount of undetermined ammunition. When given to a team member, he will recieve a small amount of ammo for his ranged weapon (like every bag containing 5 arrows-3 bolts-2javelins-1 knife-1 firepot), so you can choose between fully restocking a teammate or spread out a bit more.

    All of this of course in the event a support class having it, I dont see a knight setting traps or carrying ammunition for the archers.



  • One idea that was put on the table was two ‘buff’ type items, one of which would be used by one class and provides a +15% defence to players in a close proximity but does not effect yourself and similarly the knight could rally nearby players to provide +15% damage and again would not apply to the user. The intention being, players would be rewarded for teamwork, but if both teams were as competent and played intelligently, they could counter it effectively. What do you guys think to something like this, is it too punishing or too rewarding, or would it affect personal skill too much?



  • Bag o’ ammo and smoke pot +1.

    Im not sure about the traps though.



  • Perhaps different liquids/powders?

    Flammable liquid vial to set ground, your enemies or your sword on fire. (Because it looks terrifying and duh, fucking cool)

    Poisonous liquid vial for poisoning arrows and blades, perhaps even poisoning possible health pickups. (Why not even poison yourself to prevent capture by the enemy?)

    Amanita muscaria extract liquid vial, granting you berserk rage for a while when drunk, after the effect ceases, you lose a portion of your health, this may kill you.

    Blinding powders, throw from close distance to blind enemy for a brief moment. (Or blind yourself if you’re careless)

    Smoke powders, throw the pot to create a sudden and thick smoke screen to disappear ninja style.

    Choke powders, throw the pot of powder into the mass of enemies, creating tear gas like substance which may harass the enemies and hinder their ability to fight.

    Explosive powders, throw the pot of explosive powders into enemies, shattering and creating a loud bang. The shrapnel are ineffective against any kind of armor, but the explosion may cause a stun and confusion amongst enemies.

    Sparkle powders, throw into the air creating quite a lightshow, confusing or taunting enemies nearby. (Running out of ideas, yeah. Ignore this one.)

    It would be easy to add more liquids and powders through updates or DLC when the mechanics are once done.

    :]



  • +1 smoke pot
    +1 fire pot
    +1 rampart/wooden blocking device that is killed generally fast and blocks things/areas and may possibly be able to be used for cover



  • Tribuli-actual roman historical weapons, basically four-pronged spikes twisted together so they always land with one spike facing upwards, throw on area, all players that now move through the area take small damage and move slower, also these would be small and so only detectable to the experienced player who knows what to look for (reflections of metal etc). good for blocking acess points+ easily carried

    Water- well duh…. basically extinguishes friendly players and areas of fire- this is of course presuming the oilpots don’t use hydro-carbon based fuel otherwise the result may appear to be something more like a rammstein concert :L.

    Stones/boulders- again historically acurate, so these force a large movement penalty on the carrier and (unsurprisingly) cannot be “thrown” particularly far and are best employed by dropping directly onto attackers below the wall using a ram and so on. I don’t know how they would be replensished if at all. These would unsurprisingly be almost always a 1hit kill and once used their movement penalty would be lifted and the player could fight on normally.

    oil/ flame-fuel- couldn’t think of a more suitable name but anyways these are carried in vials that can be put onto catapult stones or ballista rounds and the subsequent shot would have increased area of effect+damage, it may also set a large area of ground on fire for a while (ie longer than a normal catapult stone would do). Also flaming- ballistas bolts will not stop moving until they hit the floor or a wall (again going boom-flash). Basically think of 2-3 oilpots attatched to a bolt or boulder by some rope that will go off on contact.

    +1 for barrel O’ ammo
    +1 for archer screen and spiked logs construction (the ones dotted around the map in meleefields- I dunno what they are called)

    also more than 750 members :D :berz: :k1: :h1: :cheers: :arm: :D



  • Blaine :

    One idea that was put on the table was two ‘buff’ type items, one of which would be used by one class and provides a +15% defence to players in a close proximity but does not effect yourself and similarly the knight could rally nearby players to provide +15% damage and again would not apply to the user. The intention being, players would be rewarded for teamwork, but if both teams were as competent and played intelligently, they could counter it effectively. What do you guys think to something like this, is it too punishing or too rewarding, or would it affect personal skill too much?

    The game will suffer of what we always wanted to avoid until now, magic and spells/skills. It’s going to break the immersion and isn’t certainly going to make the game more interesting. I think personally that what you want to promote with thoses “buffs” is already being done by nature without forcing it: get closer to your friends to feel confident and survive longer, go alone like a lone wolf and your path will be less secure. And it’s already way better than “I will stick with my team mates because they can buff me to become stronger”. With thoses buffs in, you will often see in the game’s discussion some players complaining about their team mates not buffing them or asking for buffs and we are obsviously not in some kind of MMO. So buff is bad, okay?



  • Just curious what the smoke pots etc did in AOC? I did a quick google but couldn’t find it.

    I think I agree with Holy_Teal in that I don’t think having +15% style buffs are good. At first I wanted to say something like have a support rally flag that heals or gives a benefit like that, but as I thought about it, I think it steps away from immersion and puts you too far into gamey territory to add anything.

    So was trying to think of things you might find on the medieval battlefield… Maybe things like wooden shields you can roll up and push, or those crazy ass bell hide shields from Talhoffer’s fighting manual to advance while avoiding arrow fire.

    For personal support items, not really sure what a soldier would need in the heat of the moment that they wouldn’t have on them to start. Extra arrows maybe? A way to repair armor and/or bandages to heal health? Those are some pretty standard FPS support items.

    Maybe there could be a ‘marking’ tool of some sort. A command tool that lets you shout orders and display objectives on your teammates UI. Could somehow mimic the battlefield commander role, and let this player point at spots to put ‘attack/defend’ commands, though I know in pubs this will probably be largely ignored and might not be worth the coding effort.

    This goes along with traps, but how about a trip line? You can deploy it between walls of a certain length and if someone walks over it they are fine, but if they run they stumble and fall over.

    There could be perhaps a polearm type weapon that does almost no damage but has push back. The players with the polearm might suffer difficult defense and could not by themselves keep a determined player away, but in conjunction with a player playing ‘normally’ could assist greatly from the back. This might turn out to be overly annoying though.

    Maybe a portable battering ram to knock down doors.

    A set of rocks to throw at someone and interrupt? Again might be annoying and ruin a fun 2 on 1 melee situation because the other player is just standing back throwing rocks.

    This might go against what I said above, but a method to restore a friend’s stamina. This could be explained away by a commander or friend yelling words of encouragement that give you a burst of energy to keep pushing yourself farther before you get tired.

    Just portable barriers of any sort would work, small fences, wooden walls, or even sharpened spikes. Things that you can deploy to reshape the battlefield temporarily.

    Small ladders or ropes with grapple hooks that allows new access points. Have to be careful with map design if you can do this though.

    A torch that can set fire to specific items. Perhaps set a pile of hay afire to cause smoke which obscures movement or the ability to burn down a door or burn a siege engine, or even to hurl it at a player for a sort of micro ‘flash bang’ effect if it hits.

    Perhaps an oversized tower shield that you can not wield weapons while carrying. This probably fits with the pushable wooden shields, but really just have a way for you to advance with the shield up and have teammates huddle behind you for protection until you reach a safe area for them to break out and engage.

    Ok well out of ideas, in hindsight I really like the idea of sharpened spikes that you must move through slowly or suffer damage and are destructible with time. I like the oversized shield idea a lot too, but only if there is a mode or map that would require those kind of tactics.



  • Vial of spammyness: When consumed, you will be at 100% stamina for 10 seconds, no matter your previous stamina state.



  • About the buffs, I don’t think “I’m near you so you have X bonus” is acceptable. It’s power without gameplay, requiring no interaction but being close to some guy using a certain class or weapon. It also, again, sortof breaks immersion.

    I think a better alternative would be war cries that certain classes (again a commander type class) can do. The best example I can think of is a shout that restores stamina; “YOU SNIVELING DOGS CALL YOURSELVES WARRIORS? YOU CAN REST WHEN YOU HAVE A PILE OF AGATHIAN CORPSES TO MAKE YOUR BED!” - “WHILE YOU WASTE TIME CATCHING YOUR BREATH, THINK OF ALL OF THE AGATHIANS WHO HAVE BREATHED THEIR LAST, AND FIGHT ON IN THEIR NAME!” I think that at least has some basis in reality and believable enough that it wouldn’t break immersion. Similar “Charge!” calls could provide a temporary boost of speed and immunity to flinching/slowdown/whatever from projectiles. “SHRUG OFF THE PAIN AND PRESS ON, OUR OBJECTIVE IS FINALLY IN SIGHT!”

    But yeah, just standing around someone shouldn’t buff you; maybe have the hypothetical “Support” class be able to place banners that give teammates buffs in a small area, but the banners are easily knocked down to negate the bonus. That wouldn’t break immersion quite as much; fighting under your own banner is inspiring, after all - and it provides gameplay elements of when and where to construct the banner, defending it, trying to knock it down, rather than just “as long as that guy is alive their team is stronger”.



  • Going with banners that give a buff i don’t think would give the proper type of immersion because sure, you’re fighting under a banner, so what? If i had a big burly dude behind me shouting at me I’d be more inspired by that than some cloth flapping about me.Thinking about it, having a commander type class would be interesting since EVERYWHERE you see support type rolls, all through out history you had someone either raising morale (propaganda) or causing someone to feel enough fear to do something (Russian lieutenants shooting retreaters, deserters being shot and so on, the German “war-machine”). Making someone bite the bullet and go a “support” class i think would be beneficial but not game breaking. Having that little extra push at the right times, everyone had a battle-cry, or war drums to inspire them and i think adding something like that to this game would immerse players into the battlefield than anything. Fighting in say medium to large numbers (for AoC, so 10-20) and having your “commander” shouting orders or “inspiring” words while fighting. Every newer game seems to have a support type roll or support aspects, if you look at dota type games then you have classes dedicated to support the team, and even in BFBC2 you have a medic class you can gear to be supportive, you can even gear the recon and engineer to support more than gun. Personally i would love to be the guy shouting at all my underlings to fight harder for their lord, although i wouldn’t be killing all that many things (balance so the commander is more defensive than offensive, less damage more armor) but I’d be enabling kills where people might not get them and maybe even win a battle BECAUSE i was shouting at them, be it over the mic or not :)



  • I’m going to have to disagree on some points wit’ you guys :L. Although I can see an inspirational figure being important, be it an angry server admin threataning to ban you if you slash him again or another admin or clan leader wading their way through the foe, I doubt having a class that has “press left click to get pumped and warcry+ gain 15% dmg boost” is going to be particularly immersive. Instead (following along the lines of what has been the general basis in many other forums concerning immersion/gameplay squabbles between many of you guys) I believe that the only buffs would be “natural” ones as I’ve heard it being called.
    EXAMPLES:

    1. the leader (or some player whos has this ability) promises to reward those who fight well this day- cue inspirational speech and message sayying that you will now gain +10% xp (or some other reward) for each kill you make, so long as the “leader” player is still alive. This ofc naturally makes the player want to kill the enemy and help his comrades for juicy reward :D

    2. The other method would be threataning his teammates with a minus xp beating should they die before they have killed another enemy or if they die before another 30 secs of life. This of course may cater to another players idea of “inspiration” in flogging their teamates for their failures :evil:

    these could of course be added together to have "you can die now and recieve a loss on your xp points, or fight them and recieve a bonus :D. Anyways what are your thoughts on that idea?

    MORE OR LESS NEW POST
    concerning buildable defences I’m guessing that we have already realised that one man isn’t going to be carrying an wall of stakes or a whole archer screen around with him. So instead lets just make him carry one maybe two wooden stakes so that only if 3-4 players use them together will they be effective. Also concerning the spiked walls (those small wooden tanktrap shaped things in meleefields) only a section around 60-70 cm long should be carried by one person. And those archer screen would probably have to be built in layers.
    imagine looking at one face on. now split it down the middle. and then cut that into thirds going horizontaly.
    1. one player may place the first wattle shield piece down which would cover around half of him if he crouched down (ie not particularly effective)
    layer 2. the other piece is added on-top making it tall enough to full y conceal one crouching person and just small enough to be shot over if he stood
    layer 3. the top piece is added including an arrow slit which is small enough to be shot out of without much worry of an enemy shooting through it. The structur is now slightly taller than a man too.

    these wattle screens and spiked walls could also be extended sideways to allow more people to shelter behind. I know you’re probably all thinking that these would only be useful in certain scenarios (how to spell?), but hell isn’t that the point of all of the tactical weapons?!?!?!?



  • @Campin:

    I’m going to have to disagree on some points wit’ you guys :L…… I doubt having a class that has “press left click to get pumped and warcry+ gain 15% dmg boost” is going to be particularly immersive…

    @Campin:

    1. the leader (or some player whos has this ability)……

    :o



  • how about the server admins or at least the player with the highest score?

    with great power comes great responsibility
    -Uncle Ben, spider-man’s uncle



  • But you’d still having a commanding roll, and you’d still have commander specific abilities, putting it the way me and sly have stated you would have a class dedicated to it instead of trying to figure out the “best” player on either team, or having admins do it. Although having it as a class could get some griefing, as some scrub could take it and do nothing with it, but that’s why there’s server admins



  • I believe the command class could just be a regular class with no inherent class limits. Just make the bonuses he’s able to grant non-stacking so that you can’t all pile on the commander or whatever and abuse massive teamwide bonuses. And if you could have more than one (or two or whatever) per team, there’s no chance of having some inexperienced/griefing player taking up the class slot when you might need it.

    Also, so that there’s no confusion as to this class’s status (for example it’d be confusing having half your team be a “Commander”), it should be named something more ambiguous like Battle Rouser.



  • and have it capped at one, maybe two people


  • Developer

    From what I gathered from this thread so far the main ideas appear to be in having support weapons as some mix of the following:

    • Smoke Pot
    • Oil Pot
    • Barricade/Big Shield
    • Ammo Bag
    • Placed Trap
    • “Buffs”

    Personally, the top 3 seem like the better options over the bottom 3, as you can dispute the usefulness of an ammo bag, the fun factor of a placed trap and the immersion qualities of things like buffs. What else can we include in the game that would be fitting to the theme and also interesting or unique for players to use in this setting.

    Some Questions for Brainstorming:

    Should this item let you stun your enemies? Let you act more as a recon/scout unit? Help your team in a certain area? Give you a last minute push? Help you defeat a clustered enemy force? Encourage your allies to fight nearby you? Allow you to navigate the map differently? Change the battlefield environment? Make you a target for the enemy team but help your team in some way?


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