CMW appealing to many playstyles.



  • I made a suggestion a few days ago having to do with healing, the amount of dmg dealt by weapons and how can this affect the tactical gameplay and teamwork in game.

    I proposed :

    • The usage of a limited amount of bandages to be able to have the passive regen for your character as a 5-10 sec action that should not be interrupted (no passive regen by default enabled). It would have been nice also to be able to use the bandages not only to yourself but to others also.

    • The usage of a limited amount of potions to be able to replenish an amount of energy almost instantaneous (30% of the average HP maybe) as a 4 sec action that should not be interrupted. It would have been nice also to be able to trade the potions you got.

    • To take more hits to kill someone and not only 1-2.
      This can be achieved with either more HP for chars or less dmg for weapons.

    • To be able to adjust the amount of spawns for each team in each game session.

    Well i really believe all those measures will greatly enhance the teamwork, tactics and immersion in the game as they are going to add the need for way more tactical actions ingame.

    As an example, pulling back temporarily to form a line of defense protecting those behind it that are taking care of their wounds and being harder to kill means more chances to correct your strategy on the run or more chances for your mates to jump in to save you and will allow less death-spawns and thus greater immersion.

    But that is only my opinion, though i know that other people also share my opinion because it comes from my experience in MO which has been through those exact issues of “Amount of healing”, “Amount of damage for weapons”, “the ability of enemies to resurrect-spawn and jump again into battle” etc…

    But they were all dealt with great skepticism from the members of this community that read my post and this is completely understood since you can’t come to a game and force onto them such maybe “radical” changes since they are used to play the game in a very certain way.

    But as many things in life then even this can be seen from two different sides so i propose this.

    Suggestion

    Implement a limited amount of Bandages
    Turning the passive regen on for lets say 30 sec with the press of a button and if the char stands still for 5-10 sec (imaginary applying of the bandages, if its a real animation then it will be awesome) can’t be that hard to program.

    Implement a limited amount of Potions
    Healing an amount of HP with the press of a button and if the char stands still for 5 sec (imaginary drinking of the potion, if its a real animation then it will be awesome) can’t be that hard to program either.

    Implement a % slider for Health or Weapon Damage or both
    Going from lets say 50% to 200%. The slider can be free to move (50%, 51%…) or have some preset positions (50%, 100%, 150%, 200%).

    Implement options such as number of individual or team Spawns for game sessions etc.

    ALL THOSE OPTIONS SHOULD BE TOGGLABLE OR CHANGABLE IN THE CAMPAIGN CREATION SETTINGS (potions and bandages ON/OFF, movable sliders, etc).

    I can understand the community is used to a certain way of playing the game but the new game (CMW) might appeal to way more players that may be used or like to play differently.
    Imo there is no reason to alienate them by forcing only limited options to them since i’m sure it’s not that hard to program this.

    (I believe there are mods changing those stuff already so why shouldn’t they be implemented)

    I would really like to hear Tibberius or anyone else’s opinion on the matter.
    If you do this i will be really satisfied (and not only me i guess).

    Thanks.



  • It’s great that you’re thinking about the tactical gameplay and teamwork side of the game, because that’s also one of the areas we have been exploring and getting community views on as well.

    Age of Chivalry in a public environment really lacked teamwork and a single person could easily win or lose a map for an entire team; often they had no choice because people would rather fight alone and probably felt they had to due to the lack of teamwork options. It was only in competitive environments where an element of teamwork became apparent, such as clan wars, where people would team up to assault certain areas, but actually relied on them knowing other people’s capabilities and playstyles and not what the game itself provided to enhance gameplay.

    Having user-applied bandages and no passive regeneration is something I feel that could potentially be an annoyance between battles in the various sections of the maps. What you’re saying, is that I’m forced to wait for someone else (assuming I don’t have access to bandages myself) to heal me or have to go out of the way to find a ‘healer’. If several people did this, it could disrupt the flow of combat, and you’ll have groups of people trying to attack, and groups of people trying to heal, rather than everyone moving to combat. Now, in a game like TF2, people do go backwards to find Medics, but because the game is super fast and is a shooter, it’s not so much of a problem because 3-4 seconds later, you’ll be shooting again, but in a melee game, it could take anywhere from 30 seconds upwards to get back in to combat again.

    We’ve carefully designed the health regeneration so that combat can continuously flow, and between battles, you won’t be waiting an eternity for your health to reach maximum again but you won’t simply be able to take a hit and hide for a few seconds to recover it; based on this, I’m struggling to see where bandages could actually fit in as really the only gap left to fill is healing people in combat, and that would just completely ruin fights.

    As mentioned elsewhere, having no regeneration could also possibly result in people just suiciding to gain full health again. If the ‘healers’ in my team are particularly ‘useless’, or non existent at all, I think I would just rather suicide if I’m on the defending team and take damage at some point.

    Having said all this, bandages are not being ruled out. There are many different possible implementations, such as dropping bandages, or kits, or having medical tents (as in aoc_siege) and should we want to look at it in the future, we could perhaps take a different approach and see what gaps there are left to fill.

    Potions are something that would break the ethos of the game. We don’t want to dive in to the area of ‘magical’ things, or things that you would see in fantasy titles. There’s not much more to add to that really.

    With regards to the sliders, I’m not quite sure how it would appear to different play styles as such as it’s more of a thing that would appear to people’s tastes. I doubt we’ll be introducing or advocating lots of different weapon damage/health variations on servers as balancing the game to one particular set of values is challenging enough and could produce confusion for people switching servers. However, should server operators wish to create their own ‘modes’, by changing the values themselves in the configuration files, they are free to do so and even release them as mods if they wish.

    I won’t say much about the spawning changes, as that’s something that is entirely dependent on the map and game mode you are playing, such as team objective, or deathmatch. Allowing server operators to modify initial spawn limits in deathmatches could be a possibility and may be suited to deathmatch style servers and for people who like deathmatch maps. The various game modes we have may encourage server operators to only run a particular game mode, and we’ll certainly look at how we can provide options to change things for operators who want to exclusively support those modes.

    Keep coming up with ideas, we like to hear as many as possible!



  • I’ll answer in a few hours after i finish the job cause the boss is yelling LOL.
    I really don’t think the arguments you refer to are actually negative for the gameplay. I’ll answer soon and i’ll be happy to continue this conversation.



  • Firstly i wanna say that i’m talking mainly with the deathmatch game modes in mind. I guess these changes could apply to other game modes but i can’t assess that right now due to the many other unknown details.

    My answers are in bold.

    @Blaine:

    …Having user-applied bandages and no passive regeneration is something I feel that could potentially be an annoyance between battles in the various sections of the maps. What you’re saying, is that I’m forced to wait for someone else (assuming I don’t have access to bandages myself) to heal me or have to go out of the way to find a ‘healer’.

    **Yes, that’s what i mean. Assuming that you move forth alone and used all your bandages you will have to move back and find a guildmate or talk to him via voip like :

    PlayerA : “Guys i need a heal and i’m out of bandages!”
    PlayerB : “I’m almost out of bandages also and i got someone chasing me and i cannot heal.”
    Guild leader : “Ok guys pull back at the bridge and group up for heals and PlayerC and PlayerD go help PlayerB and make sure you escort him back to the bridge GO GO GO!”

    That sounds like teamwork to me. No need to continuously attack to have fun.
    You can have a lot of fun in a tactical retreat also and more health or less DMG from weapons will certainly give you more chances for a tactical retreat.
    And healing will give you one more reason to tactically retreat.
    **

    If several people did this, it could disrupt the flow of combat, and you’ll have groups of people trying to attack, and groups of people trying to heal, rather than everyone moving to combat.

    **As i said you can have a lot of fun in a tactical retreat also to regroup heal and change your strategy no need to continuously attack to have fun.

    As you say if no heals exist and you get a lot of dmg from weapons the gameplay will be like
    the 2 groups face each other the one sustains a lot of casualties or even becomes annihilated, resurrects and moves to face the other side once again.

    As i propose the gameplay will be like the 2 groups face each other the one sustains more injuries but due to the (higher HP or lower DMG from weapons) their not so injured comrades might manage to replace the injured (before they die) in the first line of the group but with a more defensive role so they can give their injured comrades the chance to flee and treat their wounds.
    The possible scenarios of what might happen next, from then and on are numerous.

    I think the difference between those 2 cases is obvious.
    **

    Now, in a game like TF2, people do go backwards to find Medics, but because the game is super fast and is a shooter, it’s not so much of a problem because 3-4 seconds later, you’ll be shooting again, but in a melee game, it could take anywhere from 30 seconds upwards to get back in to combat again.

    **I don’t understand why that is bad.
    Not all people want to play a medieval combat game in a pace of a modern shooter.

    This way it might take up to 5 or even 10 minutes for the one group to kill the other but during this time there will be a lot of tactical maneuvers being made and the end of the round will mean that the winning side has outmaneuvered the other.
    **

    …I’m struggling to see where bandages could actually fit in as really the only gap left to fill is healing people in combat, and that would just completely ruin fights…

    **It will ruin fights only if you force this type of gameplay to the players that do not want to play like that.
    As it will ruin the fights also for some player if you force another playstyle to those who wanna have some form of healing, less DMG for weapons, and find the continuous [die]->[Spawn] immersion breaking.

    I don’t see a reason even for the “hardcore” part of the community to react negatively if those features can be adjusted (on/off, slider, etc) in the session creation settings.
    Each player will join the session he wants to play in.
    I might end up that the players will not prefer it but you know something, it might end up turning that many new players might prefer it.
    For me the only reason not to implement it since i bet it’s not that hard to be programmed will be out of fear of alienating the “hardcore” members of the community but as i said i don’t see a reason for them to react also since those features will be togglable.
    **

    As mentioned elsewhere, having no regeneration could also possibly result in people just suiciding to gain full health again. If the ‘healers’ in my team are particularly ‘useless’, or non existent at all, I think I would just rather suicide if I’m on the defending team and take damage at some point.

    There are not going to be suicides if as i proposed you implement an adjustable spawn limit for groups or individuals

    …Potions are something that would break the ethos of the game. We don’t want to dive in to the area of ‘magical’ things, or things that you would see in fantasy titles. There’s not much more to add to that really…

    **If those features can be turned on and off for each different game session the only thing that is going to break is the ego of some “hardcore” members who might want to force their type of gameplay out of pure selfishness to every new player interested in the game.

    Since in many highly popular shooters those sliders and options do exist to capture the interest of many players with different playstyles i don’t know why it’s that bad to include it here also.
    Unless there is a similar attitude here, like in MO which is “If you disagree then go back to wow because that’s how things should be, period!”
    **

    …However, should server operators wish to create their own ‘modes’, by changing the values themselves in the configuration files, they are free to do so and even release them as mods if they wish…

    **So a whole server can handle only one calculation for weapon DMG? Isn’t there a way to be like for this campaign FinalDMG = WeaponDMG * PercentageOfTheSlider

    No need for more weapon balancing (or maybe a little) because with 70% a weapon doing 10 dmg will do 7 dmg and a weapon doing 100 dmg will do 70 dmg.
    **

    …Allowing server operators to modify initial spawn limits in deathmatches could be a possibility and may be suited to deathmatch style servers and for people who like deathmatch maps…

    Yeah, i don’t see a reason not to do it.

    Keep coming up with ideas, we like to hear as many as possible!



  • Well, as an Indie dev, it seems reasonable enough to go with what you know works for your customers first and then later on think of things like this.

    A slider of sorts would be an option for TDM style servers but slow paced combat like you mention will require a lot more tweaking for objective maps.

    Also, archers are already cowardly. With more hits to a kill (for example when even a crossbow shot to the chest wont oneshot the archer) I fear that archers in pub games are going to be even less of an objective player and just hide behind their allies and demand heals.

    Tbh, I wouldn’t mind it if there weren’t an archer class at all in Chiv.



  • I don’t ask for my suggestion to be the main focus in the development.

    I just ask for it to be considered to be added even in the future as an update.
    I don’t see a problem also in the future for tournaments to be organized for all those various types of gameplay.



  • well you know my advice for people who would prefer to influence the devsin a completely different way…
    MAKE A MOD

    The problem is with the slider options is, as you say, “players will be able to join the servers they want so they can play with the rules that seem fairest to them”. Seems a good idea but I doubt physically it would be so easy. For example I live in england and understandably I want the lowest ping poss and a decent amount of players when playing on a server, now unfortunately AoC didn’t doesn’t have this community where I could actually choose what suits me best, atm i play mainly on TRF server, which is in germany so i get 50 ping if I’m lucky. This is live-able but given the choice I would play on an English server, but I haven’t seen PGP online in several months and RK only seems to appear once a fortnight :(. This ofc means that either LOADS of new clans will have to be formed for chiv or ppl will have to just accept playing on 5-6 servers like AoC, which I’m ok with.

    Also that thing about “hardcore” players being egotistical? LOW BLOW! xD. We are needed to play the game, AoC couldn’t have functioned with the 6/7 major clans having servers up regularly and i doubt chiv should be an exception. Forgive them if they want to play their way because they make the rules being admins and they are the ones volunteering to help the community grow, they deserve respect for what they do and if they are wanting to become epic at the game then let them because they are the the ones trying to make it better for you and they should be thanked for that. Also can you imagine the hate between server players if they are ever forced to switch

    Server A player: dude your such a noob hoping to kill me in one hit
    Server B player: its not my fault i’m use to playing with other server rules and I would be soo much better than you if we were using them!
    WAAA WAAA WAAA
    and so on

    You ever tried to join a harcore server on cod4 recently? They aint very happy with you bringing yo’ mainstream treyarch ayss down onto their turf

    anyways if you want to have your own server with different weapon damages fine by me, but tbh I think some of that general callousness from MO you speak off may have rubbed off on u ;)



  • “I made a thread to tell you about a thread I made earlier.”

    So why not just edit your original post in that thread and/or post another response there?

    Major forum faux pas. I’d like to request someone merge the two threads so that discussions don’t get split.

    Anyway, I guess I’ll post another response here. When you talk about implementing things like healing/regeneration to deathmatch only, it seems far less disagreeable to me. Age of Chivalry did actually have a SUPER SECRET BONUS HEALING METHOD that was generally not known by many people, which were tables with a roll of bandages. Very limited use, it would restore like a single bar of health total, but restored rather rapidly just by standing near the table and pressing “Use”. Having something like that in a Deathmatch map could actually be really interesting. It should be placed in a central, exposed area, so it could serve as a “secondary objective” of sorts, trying to secure this area so that your injured teammates can get in the occasional heal. It would definitely add more potential teamwork and help focus the fragging on deathmatch maps. I approve of something like that. But as to a healing based class, or healing based items, I’m going to say no simply because that’s not something that should be exclusive to a particular gamemode. (Unless the previously mentioned “healing area” secondary objective in TDM maps allowed you to pick up some kind of healing item which spawned infrequently and could be stored for later use, that would be fine too)



  • About the “hardcore” players and their influence on Devs it’s not a “Low blow” it’s the truth that some times can lead a game the wrong way and there is a positive type of “Hardcore players” and again there is always the negative type.
    Don’t know why someone might be offended from it and consider it a “Low blow”.
    Of course i respect the healthy part of the “hardcore” players but it’s not like anyone’s money is worth more than anyone else’s and of course you don’t want the game to be appealing to only a part of those customers.

    Again, i’m not talking about different servers for the game sessions (which would not be viable) but all servers hosting game sessions with different settings.

    If though your argument is that you wont find in any server a game session with the options that you like then that means something about your preferred way of playstyle and i don’t think that this is a valid reason to force it to anyone else.


  • Developer

    I think in the end its not that your ideas are bad, just that they are different from our goals with Chiv. What you suggest seems like an arcade version of the game, with lots of health and no threat of death until you run out of items. It’s something that could be fun for some people, including yourself but it’s not what Chiv is meant to be. So to say we should include it and not force people to play with the native rules is kind of strange to me. If we made the rules adjustable for everyone I realize that sounds ideal, but I believe in the end there would be so much segregation in the game that it wouldn’t be fun filtering all the servers down so far to find one in your style. Hopefully the game has an active modding community and someone chooses to make a more arcadey, slower paced mod for players in your style that might prefer it. But it’s just not realistic for our dev team, or any dev team, to try and cater to the views of every community member by giving you the option of how to play the game. We do want to release at some point afterall.



  • I think kills in a range of 1-4 hits is a must for the game to succeed. 1 hit with the most damaging weapon against the weakest armor, and 4 with the weakest weapon against the best armor. If we forget about archers, the amount of hits for melee classes to kill each other should be 2, and 3 hits for very fast weapons.

    I dont know if you played Age of Chivalry, but fights between even opponents took very, VERY long. As long as to completely deplete your stamina bar, and forcing you to rest a bit and manage your stamina better than your opponent in order to win. Also, one player that feels he is inferior to you might just choose to block everything you throw at him just in order to hold an objective while his team respawns and comes to the rescue. In any case, we have players with low HP (2 hits are enough to kill them), and yet they survive blows by the dozen.

    Stamina is a key factor in this case: if you have too much, it´s pointless, as you dont have to manage it at all. If it is too short, you wont be able to fight more than one enemy at once, and the game wont be fun at all as as soon as you perform a couple of actions, you are unable to do anything until you rest. In order to have a balanced stamina system, that constantly demands strategic decitions from the player, you need to keep HP low in order to have the proper amount of stamina.

    Also, with high HP, the combat doesnt feel nearly as brutal. Is there no problem in being hit with a giant axe on the head? Sure as hell there is. You better be careful around that berzerk giant axe wielder that looks at you with bloodlust in his eyes. If you are not, he might crack your skull open in one single hit, then rip your heart from your chest and feast on it.



  • Not a bad idea Slygoat i don’t have a problem with the way it will be implemented as long as it exist as a tactic and of course i wouldn’t want to force it to the players that don’t wanna play with it as a feature.
    That’s why i suggested the togglable features.

    If it was movable it would have been awesome since the one team might even try to capture it, move it and secure it in their own territory/area.



  • @Tibberius:

    I think in the end its not that your ideas are bad, just that they are different from our goals with Chiv. What you suggest seems like an arcade version of the game, with lots of health and no threat of death until you run out of items. It’s something that could be fun for some people, including yourself but it’s not what Chiv is meant to be. So to say we should include it and not force people to play with the native rules is kind of strange to me. If we made the rules adjustable for everyone I realize that sounds ideal, but I believe in the end there would be so much segregation in the game that it wouldn’t be fun filtering all the servers down so far to find one in your style. Hopefully the game has an active modding community and someone chooses to make a more arcadey, slower paced mod for players in your style that might prefer it. But it’s just not realistic for our dev team, or any dev team, to try and cater to the views of every community member by giving you the option of how to play the game. We do want to release at some point afterall.

    kk it’s completely understood if the reasons you don’t want that ingame are that it doesn’t suit your idea about how the game should be and also the tight development schedule.
    It’s not that the game will not have healing as it is going to be in the form of passive regen so i guess i will have to adjust to that.
    I also never said that the game will not be good w/o the forms of healing i proposed or that i wont buy it, on the contrary i can’t wait to try it.

    But we disagree on the comprehension of what is considered “arcadey” since i find it more arcadey to be able to die and resurrect 30 times in a game session than 3 to 5 times and being able to use potions seems more fantasy than arcadey to me.
    Also having only 3 to 5 spawns available per session seems imo to have a greater consequence of death than 30 spawns.
    Slow also doesn’t mean arcadey, it’s usually the complete opposite.

    But as i said it’s completely understood if that’s not how you want it to be.

    Nonetheless i’m sure i’m going to enjoy it when it comes out and i hope you guys release some expansions in the future if it all goes well, to expand the gameplay to a wider range of playstyles.



  • have potions and bandages and what not isn’t a “playstyle” it’s a different genre of game. Chivalry is trying to cater to as much realism as possible and if you went back to medieval ages and went onto a battlefield you won’t find soldiers using bandages in the heat of battle, or running backwards to drink potions that magically heal them. Although they are good ideas, they aren’t good ideas for this type of game and the type of environment that is being developed, your suggestions would be good for a MMORPG setting, not a FPS. If you were able to play AoC in the competitive scene then you would know that yes there is A LOT of tactics, there are A LOT of split decisions, there’s A LOT of maneuvering.



  • I think Vox is right on this one, i support the idea of tactics and teamplay but if that means including medics, buff banners etc then i’ll pass.

    anyways i think i figured out the philosophy behind georgatos’ posts :D. essentially for his ideas to work two thing would need to happen
    1. players would need to fear death. This is very hard to do in an fps as you usually just respawn o full hp as good as ever (except in TDM where you would be losing the game for your team). This only happened in MO and other rpgs because you “respawned” without your items or with some negative “death-curse” like in W.A.R or WoW
    2. players would also want their team to win the game, even if this meant slowly advances in strict formation, over rushing in and heroicaly slaughtering the foe single-handed. This means that knowing “victory for your team is more important than getting as much action as possible”.

    the reason these worked so well in MO was because it had that super-cool guild system where your team winning allowed you to improve your castle and character greatly, whilst death would result in you spawning naked in the ghost town thing (i’ve never played it before i know…), without any items. Now players in clan wars will readily abide by these rules and would greatly benefit in tactical boosts like medics etc, but in public games, defintiely not so much :L. anyways thats what i brought this topic down too, about right???.



  • People fear death already -> negative k/d.

    I sincerely oppose the idea of punishing death extra. It’s frustrating, especially if you get ganged/jumped/a quick ‘defenseless’ death. Long respawn times, too. Having to wait half an hour looking at your teammates fumble around sucks.

    I ragequit Tibia (MMORPG) a couple of times because I got a little adventurous, went exploring, came into contact with high level monsters, died, and lost hours upon hours of work.

    Spawn -> die already has it’s disadvantages. Namely that you won’t ever reach the objective vs an entire enemy team defending it. You have to push in waves.



  • EXACTLY :D

    I’m not suggesting that death needs to be more……er deadly, but that if ideas like a medic or a banner or a leader or a in-depth tactics thing to be implemented (and i’m not saying they should), those criterias must be fufilled, which to some extent in AoC (dunno bout chiv) public games they weren’t because as several ppl pointed out, most players will always do the spawn—>charge—>die action in public games (absoloutely nothing wrong with this i agree if you’re simply playing for fun), but adding things like buffs etc into all games (public or otherwise) would be like adding an assasain class for the game- annoying, pointless, cowardly class if used in straight fight but could be used tactically well in knifing hidden archers in more structured games

    anyways tactics in MOST public games=bad
    tactics in clan wars+games where several hardcore players are=good

    agreed?



  • @Campin:

    …anyways tactics in MOST public games=bad
    tactics in clan wars+games where several hardcore players are=good

    agreed?

    Yeah i agree Campin Carl and that’s what i was saying in general terms, although i proposed for these features to be optional when you create a game session.

    Tiberius answered that they can’t be included cause they don’t fit the games design and development schedule but i hope there is a chance at least to get them in a future expansion as optional choices that will expand the gameplay and possible playstyles.


  • Developer

    You may be able to change some settings as a server operator that will allow you to customize a few things such as health and damage values, I only meant to imply that this will not directly be the work of the development team as we only have time to balance and tweak for the primary gameplay rules.



  • @Tibberius:

    You may be able to change some settings as a server operator that will allow you to customize a few things such as health and damage values, I only meant to imply that this will not directly be the work of the development team as we only have time to balance and tweak for the primary gameplay rules.

    wow if the game is going to be that versatile then this will be awesome.
    I see it becoming quite popular amongst many other game communities also no matter what their preferred playstyle is.
    Can’t wait!

    Thanks for the info Tibberius.


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