Something needs to be done about punching



  • I know, it’s funny, right? Running around and punching people is a good laugh…

    …but should it be a viable tactic?

    Just played a few rounds in which a few knights just ran around and punched people to death. Yes, they could be brought down, but if they got within the optimal range of your weapon you were just dead. Every time you get punched you are stunned and you aren’t able to switch to a different weapon or strike back before they pummel you to death. Even if you are skillful enough to block their hands as they come at you, which I did, they were not stunned or slowed in anyway and you still would get killed.

    It’s funny, I know, but their fists should not be greater than a greatsword. Just something should be changed with this. Either when knights get hit they are stunned/slowed or if you’re able to block a punch they should be stunned because as is you can just run straight at your enemy, take a hit, and then beat them to death without using any of the innovative combat mechanics the game was designed to utilize.



  • But think about it: you do have to use the same combat mechanics in order to win using your fists. It takes upwards of five solid hits to kill a knight with your fists, and while you are swinging, you need to use the same strategies as when you are using a weapon. Different strikes do different damage, and you need to consider the same variables (target armor, weapon damage, weapon reach, etc) as in any other fight. As someone who has played as a punching knight, most Vanguards or Knights can easily keep me at a distance if they use their weapons effectively, and I’m only able to close the gap through luck or by timing my approach based on their swings.

    More things for your consideration: The swing time for your fist is the same as any of the small secondary weapons or the Norse sword. Fists are the least damaging “weapons” in the game. When you are using fists, you are vulnerable to all weapons except for other fists, since you cannot block.

    Granted, I was surprisingly effective as a punching knight, but I hardly think that fists need a nerf of any kind. It’s goofy and it’s fun, but when you really look at it, it’s not going to turn the tide of a battle.



  • My only issue with fists is it takes less hits to kill an MAA compared to an Archer in some cases. I’d actually rather have fists do equal damage across all classes to be honest, to at least represent something of a fair fight despite class related perks. This would leave balance issues out of fists and make them fun/humiliation only, as intended.



  • @Martin:

    My only issue with fists is it takes less hits to kill an MAA compared to an Archer in some cases. I’d actually rather have fists do equal damage across all classes to be honest, to at least represent something of a fair fight despite class related perks. This would leave balance issues out of fists and make them fun/humiliation only, as intended.

    I noticed that in your damage tables. Any ideas as to why that happens? It seems like with any other weapon, MAA take less damage than archers.



  • A developer’s decision to set the MAA modifiers higher than the archer for fists only. I’m not sure on the thought process behind it.



  • @Tyler Parry:

    Here’s the thing though at best I can get 1-2 hits in with a longer distance weapon while retreating, but as a knight you can just run in and take those hits, and I won’t be able to physically keep you away. Once you get within punching distance I’m rendered absolutely ineffective. I can’t switch weapons, kick, or do anything except block which is pretty hard to do against punches and doesn’t give me any benefit other than delaying the inevitable.

    It also can take upwards to five solid hits with a dagger/shortsword against a knight. Should a fist do even close to that amount of damage? Really I should just laugh at you while your knocking on my armor and put a mace to your head but instead I’m unable to respond and quickly die.

    I don’t think it’s any mystery that anyone is able to be effective as a punching knight, because it is very effective. Maybe even more so than other weapons, which I don’t think is right.



  • You really should not be able to block or parry well at all when using your arms versus a weapon. If I swing my Zwiehander at your face and you try to use your arms to block it, bye bye arms, and upper torso for that matter.



  • You can’t block weapons with unarmed though. Can you?

    Anyways, my only real gripe is that some daggers seem to have less range than unarmed, which makes no sense.



  • @tracknumberseven:

    You really should not be able to block or parry well at all when using your arms versus a weapon. If I swing my Zwiehander at your face and you try to use your arms to block it, bye bye arms, and upper torso for that matter.

    Correct. I’m not saying that people using fists should be able to parry; I was simply stating that their inability to parry makes them all the more vulnerable.

    @B1acKni9ht:

    Once you get within punching distance I’m rendered absolutely ineffective. I can’t switch weapons, kick, or do anything except block which is pretty hard to do against punches and doesn’t give me any benefit other than delaying the inevitable.

    But as with any weapon, isn’t it your fault for not parrying his punch? I understand your frustration with the amount of damage done per punch (punching does, according to Martin’s table, do slightly more than some weapons to a knight because of the knight’s armor) and the potential for comboing once the attacker gets in close, so I imagine that there will be some balance tweaks to make punching less viable than some of the smaller weapons. However, I don’t see the knight’s fists as being more dangerous than, say, if he chooses to use a Norse sword.



  • Oh I hear you! As I witnessed some crap like this the first time I was totally ripped out of any immersion I had till that point. What a ridiculous scene…

    Punching should be removed completely. Who would throw his weapon away in a real life or death situation and try to punch someone to death who is wielding a sword or what ever weapon?

    But hey, dont have your hopes too high. This fantastic game is full of “derp” kids who think itz kewl to punch u… sigh



  • @William:

    Punching should be removed completely.

    It won’t. Two things.

    1. It was in AoC, so it’s a nostalgia thing.
    2. it was a kickstarter stretch goal. We met it, so it would really be a slap from the devs to contributors like me to have it taken out now.

    While the point of realism you said is quite true (you’d probably break your hand trying that in real life), I think completely removing unarmed is extreme. It just needs to be toned down and have reduced range so it’s more of a joke than a tactic.



  • @Tyler:

    But as with any weapon, isn’t it your fault for not parrying his punch? I understand your frustration with the amount of damage done per punch (punching does, according to Martin’s table, do slightly more than some weapons to a knight because of the knight’s armor) and the potential for comboing once the attacker gets in close, so I imagine that there will be some balance tweaks to make punching less viable than some of the smaller weapons. However, I don’t see the knight’s fists as being more dangerous than, say, if he chooses to use a Norse sword.

    Here’s the thing, I WAS PARRYING HIS PUNCH!

    But unlike other weapons were they are stunned for a time, he could up and throw another punch before I could swing with my broadsword.

    And actually I would argue that the knights fists are more dangerous than a Norse sword, as it is in the game right now, because the punches have a quicker cooldown, are harder to block, stun me, and aren’t slowed down by blocking. The Norse sword on the other hand has a slower cooldown, can easily be blocked, and is slightly stunned when parried. Granted, if you’re trying to play tactically and would like for some sword-play the sword is better because it has longer reach, but that’s not the situation that we’re referring to in this situation.



  • @William:

    Oh I hear you! As I witnessed some crap like this the first time I was totally ripped out of any immersion I had till that point. What a ridiculous scene…

    If that the thing about this game that completely shattered the illusion of verisimilitude…

    @William:

    But hey, dont have your hopes too high. This fantastic game is full of “derp” kids who think itz kewl to punch u… sigh

    Now, now, there’s no need for name-calling. I’m not sure how wanting to punch people in this game makes me a child.

    @B1acKni9ht:

    But unlike other weapons were they are stunned for a time, he could up and throw another punch before I could swing with my broadsword.

    Hmm, interesting. I never thought about the recovery time from being parried. I’ll have to toy around with that compared to other weapons.

    In my experience, most of my opponents were eventually able to sidestep and bring an ax down on my head. Try moving to your left or right in addition to backpedaling, as that seemed to work for a lot of the vanguards and knights that I fought by punching. Even when I was using the standard swing, they were able to break out of the combo by moving to the side.



  • But unlike other weapons were they are stunned for a time, he could up and throw another punch before I could swing with my broadsword.

    If you’re flinched, you should definitely parry the next incoming attack rather than wind up an attack of your own. The same applies if you’ve been parried, never windup an attack directly after being blocked by one already.

    And for the record, parrying fists gives you a 0.8s gap (which they can parry in but not attack from, IIRC, unless it’s changed), the same for every other weapon in the game.



  • Punching SHOULD be a viable tactic. It attacks faster so it can punish overly aggressive players so you can flinch their attacks. But it can also be easily countered. For MMA, simply dodge. For Vanguard and knights you can try dancing tactic or just kick the puncher and go for a thrust and if they ignore that thrust and keep coming, A:Kick again B:Overhead slash.



  • People really arguing about punching?

    If you get killed by someone punching, boy you are doing somethign really wrong….



  • If you are armed, taking someone down with any weapon is easy. If you are having trouble doing so, then that is a problem with your own skill at playing the game not a problem with the game.



  • I think that the fists are great, sometimes fun to go hand-to-hand combat with someone, even in a serious match. Fists are actually a good weapon, IF you know how to use them, and they can be blocked easily as daggers. That there is a damage difference between each class is pretty alright in my opinion, cause an Man-at arms has this dodge ability, so why should there be an disadvantage for the knight then? Considering he only has the less stamina drain on parry? Nah, keep the damage modifier for each classes please :-)



  • I play this game a lot with all classes but have never been killed by fists since beta, although people have tried it plenty enough. Just step back or to the side and you can just use the LMB. From my experience the only use for it is humiliation against inexperienced players or cool fist-dueling already.



  • I get really sad whenever I see one of these “fists OP” topics. I understand that you get frustrated when you die to something humiliating like fists, but that’s really no reason to come and try to get them removed or nerfed or whatever. Fists do the least damage of any weapon, are blocked the same as any weapon, and cannot block weapons themselves - only fist damage is blocked by fist parries. So there should literally be no situation where you allow someone to punch you to death unless you were already very low HP and they got you by surprise. If someone is running at you with their fists, just run at them and spam slash. If they get you when you weren’t paying attention and start punching you, just parry and counter. If you’re using a shield you should know that shields don’t stun attackers for as long as a parry does, but it should still be enough time for you to kick them away and just use your range and unblockable attacks.

    Fists as they are now are already a joke weapon that should only be used for showing off. Nerf them any more and they won’t even be good for that. It’s already a damn shame the Vanguard lost his devastating falcon punch; charge-punch damage is now less than two hooks.

    @wildwulfy:

    That there is a damage difference between each class is pretty alright in my opinion, cause an Man-at arms has this dodge ability, so why should there be an disadvantage for the knight then? Considering he only has the less stamina drain on parry? Nah, keep the damage modifier for each classes please :-)

    I agree with this. However, right now VG is in a terrible place for fist fights, because even if you do manage to charge up a falcon punch it doesn’t provide much of a damage advantage. Even archers are better than the VG in fist fights now; better movement and backstab is very useful. Bring back falcon punch! 50% damage cut was too much!