Longbow charged shot



  • Hello everyone

    This is just a suggestion I have. I was mulling over the concept of giving the Longbowman the ability to charge the shot, AKA pull the arrow back further. I know it isn’t an entirely realistic approach, but the gameplay could potentially benefit. Please let me explain.

    Core aspect
    The charged shot is an ability, more so an extension of how one can choose to use the bow. As a basic concept, “charging the shot” could provide an incremental increase in damage while being balanced with an incrementally increased use of stamina, and a “charge” time.

    example:
    Immediate pull back - base value of X damage - Y stamina cost
    Holding the arrow has a base value stamina drain of Y point of stamina per/s

    For every Z seconds the arrow is held, the arrow gains an additional X% of damage
    For every Z seconds the arrow is held, the arrow drains an additional Y points of stamina per/s

    These effects max out at Z seconds:
    X% - max bonus damage
    Y point of stamina per/s - max stamina drain

    Therefore, the shot would inflict X points of damage. And use Y amount of stamina. To complete a fully charged shot would take Z amount of seconds, and use up a fair bit of stamina in the process, better not miss!

    Additional effects
    The charged shot could have additional bonuses:
    Incrementally increased armor penetration
    Incrementally increased trajectory
    Crippling shot at full charge IE: Pinning shot, crippled limbs (affixes with appropriate suffixes) etc.
    Whatever else that would work appropriately…
    Additionally, this could be governed by a toggle (though I disagree with this).

    How gameplay could benefit from this; it provides a risk reward system while using the bow, you can fire off arrows in quick succession and use less stamina but you deal lower damage when you hit your target(s), you can charge your shot and increase the damage done but this takes longer and you risk wasting a larger portion of stamina if you miss your mark. This also disables archers excessively waiting for “perfect timing” to fire off their skill-shot (when the target is most likely to be unaware).

    The point?
    I know it seems pretty strange to suggest adding depth to the ranged aspect of a melee-dominant game. But I believe such a system could help make the Longbowman useful yet balanced. The main issue people had with Longbowman in AoC was because it wrecked the flow of the melee combat. At the same time the Longbowman can’t become obsolete. Too me, it just seems like the Longbowman doesn’t have enough to worry about when he is firing long-ranged shots into the fray, give him something more than aim to consider!

    Shield users; that’s another topic. More focus on what the Longbowman is capable of in melee combat is what should determine the balance between Longbow vs. Shield.

    There is the idea I had. Thanks for reading (if you have), and please let me know your thoughts/opinions/suggestions. :)

    I’m absolutely uncertain whether this has been implemented, suggested, or discussed prior. I just had the idea and wanted to share! Sorry if it’s redundant in anyway.


  • Developer

    We’re yet to reveal our plans on the details regarding the ranged weapons, and to be honest its something we’re still actively working on. Would love to hear community input here.



  • Many people have been on about charged systems :P! And it’s a great idea by far, however the only issue I have with it and its more so a design flaw in my eyes and is that shotgunning would be promoted and of course that would be an easy fix but at what cost?

    To delay the draw time is the initial solution but then you’re looking at normal draw time + hold which is by far too long to even consider (in average) so the fix would be to adjusting max hold time which in turn would be even harder on the user when wishing to make good arc angles or distance efficient shots.

    And slowly all you’re doing is designing crossbow variables such as being slower and slower in between shots, and damage would be extremely awkward to scale especially if the max damage is the same as AoC because then you’d be doing no damage on arced shots and max shots doing average damage and if you increased max damage and on charged shots you may as well be opting for a crossbow, as the over all in-dependency from longbow to crossbow is arc control.

    Maybe the way I stated just sounds bad on paper in rough format but I just can’t imagine making it balanced or slow enough for a human user to control but at the same time fast enough for gameplay.

    However if anything I would like to see trajectory increments (as to distinguish from an crossbow) with a damage scaling difference of 15 or so.

    I’m probably being over critical but I don’t want to easily foresee strict weapon opts over another when people gain unbalance knowledge. However I can say that the chivalry team probably has easy decisions where my short comings are of thought process etc.! :)



  • If damage is that hard to balance, maybe the best solution is to have the “charge” only affect arrow arc, so you can effectively “customize” shots the way you customize swings with melee weapons. So, if the enemy is close or you want to rain arrows on enemies behind cover, you will release very quickly. And if you want to snipe the enemy, or in an archer fight wich is likely to be a long range fight, you will take your time to release.

    An alternative system would be the “realistic” approach, in wich you gotta release as soon as you pull the arrow. If you have the bow tensed for more than 4 or 5 seconds, your hands start shaking and the resultant shot is innacurate and has lower speed and damage. After 3 or 4 seconds of shaking without firing a shot, the arrow would go back to its “normal” position, the one before you pulled the arrow. And to avoid beign “stuck” in a shot, maybe RMB could be used to cancel shots. To try to reduce shotgunning, the time to fully draw the bow is a bit slow, you cant fire the arrow before the bow is fully drawn, but once it is, you gotta release almost immediately (just like in real life), as spending more time in that position will only make the shot weaker.

    Just a couple of ideas I throw here, but I have no preferences in how the ranged system is gonna work, as long as it does.



  • The min/max values of damage/stamina would have to be developed. Charging your shot vs. not charging, in my opinion, should have different benefits, not better ones.

    With an incrementally increased trajectory, I find it difficult to imagine this being practical. The problem I see is it would take some time to master what is between the min/max values. Also, for new players they most likely would not grasp the mechanics at all(maybe that’s a good thing lol). I think it is a cool idea, and would add some nice variation, but I still think it would be too difficult to master.

    As for shotgunning, you’re adding risk. If you miss that charged shot, and you were at full stamina, you’re now left with close to half stamina in a melee fight you’re already the lesser of. Not to mention for a shield user, it doesn’t matter what the Longbowman is doing, when you’re there you’re there and he has to fight you. 2-hand classes should focus on the melee, and your teams ranged/shield user should worry about the enemy ranged user, until he is dead(this is the same in AoC, imo).

    EDIT: I forgot to add, on the topic of armor penetration, the Longbowman could be incapable of piercing plate armor unless charging the shot. Unless of course they’re hit in the face(not sure if hitboxes/latency would allow the accuracy). It would feel pretty awesome to hear an uncharged shot ping off your pretty armor, similar to the shield sound effect in AoC, ding!



  • @GoliathOnline:

    It would feel pretty awesome to hear an uncharged shot ping off your pretty armor, ding!

    If you finally add charged shots, THIS



  • I would prefer that it remain the way it currently is in AoC. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the longer you hold down the button, the more power you get, or until the bow string is at max tension. Bows have built in constants that don’t rely on human ability to decide maximum power, the flexibility of the bow, how much the string can stretch, and resiliency of materials (how fast they resume their original shape).

    On the other hand, when swinging a hand held melee weapon there are many factors in the swing to determine how much force of impact there will be. For example, if you transfer all avalailable energy from swinging your body with a blow, instead of just your arm then you will hit much harder, but then you leave yourself open afterwards while redistributing the weight of the weapon and your body leaving yourself open to counterattack (loss of footing).

    It’s not a bad idea, but it makes much more sense to me that a charged strike would be confined to melee weapons, and there would be consequences for using it, and especially missing.



  • @Fragsmore

    @GoliathOnline:

    I know it isn’t an entirely realistic approach, but the gameplay could potentially benefit.

    You’re probably correct in stating how a bow functions (I wouldn’t know precisely), but if you don’t mind I ask that you focus on the gameplay aspect that such a feature could provide. I would prefer to see response as to how this feature would not benefit the game as opposed to discussing the historical inaccuracy of it. That being said you’re entitled to whatever opinions you have. The game is going for “Hollywood realism” as someone put it to me, I take this as gameplay>realism.

    The reason I posted this idea was in hopes to make the Longbowman usable in competitive play while providing a balance to enable the core melee aspect to thrive, I’m not sure if I made that clear to the community.

    I really don’t want to see the Longbowman stay the same as in AoC, and I’m under the belief (from what I’ve read on these forums) that I’m not alone in this want.



  • Regardless, this applied or not…it’s not the only applicable option as to add depth to ranged gameplay, intuitively it would be clearer of many suggested ideas… but whether this could be balanced and fit in the game (uniquely) is definetly a growing concern for me, for various reasons of interloping weaponry.

    And to be honest ranged gameplay wasn’t all that bad in AoC, the only put off was literal dead-on accuracy it just felt stale as to shoot deja vu’s in repetitive fasion.



  • But the ranged weapons perfect accuracy was necesary. It ensured that hitting was a matter of skill, and not a matter of luck, and allowed you to aim for the head, even without crosshair.



  • Personally, I wouldn’t call it skill getting shot from across the map in my head whilst I’m reloading with a Crossbow for example, I call it damn right annoying. It felt like I was being targetted by a Sniper, and not a Longbow. It felt incredibly cheap when playing as the Longbow as well, one hit killing other archers from headshots so easily, from a single aimed arrow rather than using a couple and having to make an adjustment to your aim. In my opinion, headshots should be a little more difficult with ranged weapons, but nicely rewarding when you’ve hit.



  • I know what you are saying. The point in my previous opinion (that I should have stated more explicitly) was that “magic” would be required in order for a bow to exceed it’s intrinsic capabilities which has been stated will not be included in the game.

    I am not a complete realism conformist, but combat should evoke the visceral, physical nature of medieval combat in my opinion. However, above all the game should be FUN. For me that means getting little taste of the grim limitations and consequences, it may mean something else to others.

    How about this as an alternative to exceeding physical capabilities: A highly accurate shot that will improve the chance of avoiding shields, and/or hitting the enemy’s head at the cost of standing still and waiting a precious extra second or two exposing the archer to a greater chance to be hit by other archers, or melee? In AoC archers are able to move while aiming at all times, I think that tradeoff would make the class more rewarding, and maintain the game’s non-magical integrity?

    @GoliathOnline:

    The game is going for “Hollywood realism” as someone put it to me, I take this as gameplay>realism.



  • Martin I completely agree with your ranged philosophy. It should be difficult and rewarding to kill a guy wearing metal armor a hundred yards away with two sticks and a piece of string.



  • @Fragsmore

    Ah, I see what you’re saying in regard to magic. It could definitely feel that way. I don’t think I personally would mind it, but I don’t really disagree with what you’re saying.

    Another thing I thought about, inspired by Wingy, it sort of blends the two.

    Picture a graph if you can, the graph depicts tension on the bow string. It starts along the X-axis (time) and stretches up along the Y-axis (tension on the string), then after reaching the pinnacle, drops back down to the X-axis.

    How it would operate. The user would pull back the arrow, say this takes 1-2 seconds, the user then has a 1-3 second window (on the pinnacle of tension) to fire the arrow, after the 1-3 second window the users hand starts to shake and the bow tension scales back to 0. Accuracy could even taper off at the end of the pinnacle.

    The arrow/string can be released at anytime. Waiting for the pinnacle of tension however, would cause the user to receive the most accuracy and highest arrow velocity (damage, penetration, firing arc etc.). If the Longbowman is allowed to fire an arrow perfectly straight while standing still, then this would offer somewhat of a sandbox with the firing arc for skilled players, while still being relatively easy to hit the static firing arc (pinnacle) for lesser skilled players.

    Scaling damage doesn’t present an issue that I see. If you fire outside of the pinnacle, to arc the shot, then the arrow could gain velocity on the way down (not sure if that’s realistic/practical). It also solves the issue of “spraying” arrows in close proximity (low damage/penetration).


    @Martin

    I would say in the case of Crossbow vs. Longbow, the way you were using it is improper. What I mean is, one point of the Crossbow was to be easier to aim/operate than your standard Longbow, it required less training. The drawback was the reload time in comparison to the Longbow.

    However I strongly agree that the Longbow is too accurate, with no consequance. For maximum accuracy, a Longbowman should have to stop moving, like Fragsmore suggested. Moving and firing should be reserved for closer proximity.

    I think that coupled with what I suggested above could simulate the realism yet cater to the limitations of a game. As always, I’m eager to hear others opinions.



  • @Wingy:

    But the ranged weapons perfect accuracy was necesary. It ensured that hitting was a matter of skill, and not a matter of luck, and allowed you to aim for the head, even without crosshair.

    ^^^^

    No weapons in AoC or Chivalry are hitscan, so they need to be 100% accurate. Imagine if your rockets fired at random angles in TF2, that’d be frustrating as hell to try and hit anything that wasn’t point blank in front of you. And that’s a game that already has a ton of luck based elements, so the example is even more apparent.

    @Martin:

    Personally, I wouldn’t call it skill getting shot from across the map in my head whilst I’m reloading with a Crossbow for example, I call it damn right annoying. It felt like I was being targetted by a Sniper, and not a Longbow. It felt incredibly cheap when playing as the Longbow as well, one hit killing other archers from headshots so easily, from a single aimed arrow rather than using a couple and having to make an adjustment to your aim. In my opinion, headshots should be a little more difficult with ranged weapons, but nicely rewarding when you’ve hit.

    Seems a little biased from the point of view of a crossbowman, no? Personally I don’t like being a guardsman, a medium speed class with no shield, and being easily one shotted by a crossbow to anywhere on the body. They don’t even have to aim for the head, and I have nothing to fight back with but a pitiful range fire pot ;)



  • Well maybe instead of accuracy reduction coming out right from a bow it could instead be effected by a wind scaling after such distance as to maintain skill but also reliability in close to medium quarters.



  • Whatever you do, make it require skill.



  • From here:
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1176&p=8640#p8640:

    @Deception:

    I think the amount of time the bow has been “charging” should change the way the arrow acts. A short charge would result in the arrow veering off course a tad bit. A medium charge time would make the arrow more accurate. A long charge would slowly lower the FOV, which essentially removes peripheral vision and zooms the center of your view in, as if the bowman is focusing. A long charge would also greatly increase accuracy. But if you “charge” the bow longer than that, just like SPY said, your hand would shake, and the arrow accuracy would get worse and worse until he puts down the bow. The FOV would fade back to normal once the bow is put down, or immediately change back to the standard FOV if the shot is fired. That’s my vision for the bowman.
    :archb:



  • Here’s my view on this:

    viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1225



  • I like the idea of if you hold your shot for to long your arms and hands get tired and they start to shake and you wont be as acurate. Like you would in real life.


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