Add some ladies. Why not?



  • Hi! First of all, great game! I’m really enjoying the fact that there is a skill-based FP competitive game out there, finally, with swords. This game combines everything I love about stuff like Half Life, Skyrim, and other favourites and puts it into a great format. I’ve been very supportive of the game and have shown the steam page to many of my friends.

    Here’s a couple things I would like to see implemented.

    Now, I know what some of you might be thinking. Female knights? But isn’t this medieval? Aren’t women forbidden from entering combat?

    Well, maybe, but it’s also fictional. The Agatha Knights and the Mason Order may be based on some historical entities, but, bottom line is, it’s still fiction. That leaves room for a ton of options. My question is, what would the developers have to lose if they added a female option for each class? Right now, as far as I can tell, you don’t even have female NPCs (even the peasants standing in the crowd and running around in the villages are all male, from what I can see.) And, yes, I am okay with seeing women as well as men get their heads chopped off, this is a mature game.

    Personally, I think there’s a lot to gain! There still remarkably few games out there that depict women positively or even in a neutral manner. This is a great opportunity to reach out to your female audience, and the rest of your sympathizing male audience. :D

    EDIT: Just want to clear it up that this is not something I think needs to be implimented NOW. Existing deadlines for kickstarter benefits, announced development, bug fixes, etc. should definitely be handled first. It’s just something I hope will be considered in the future :D

    I also wanted to address the assumption that I will not be playing this game anymore should Torn Banner choose not consider my suggestion, and that other people should do the same. That is completely inaccurate, and although some women have expressed that here, I can’t blame them for their decision. I like this game a lot, and I will continue playing it because I enjoy playing what I feel are good games. If not including female options and gender disparities in the community were a reason for me to stop playing video games, I would have long ago stopped spending 20+ years on them, and I would not have put myself on the path to a full time career in development art.

    What this comes down to is a matter of pros and cons. Certainly I have some personal feelings on the matter, as is to be expected when you are a minority, but what I really want from the community is two kinds of feedback: Why you think this could be a good thing as well as why you think it would not be a good thing. Try to think objectively on both points, because I’m interested in hearing what you have to say. Please try to avoid assumptions and baseless speculation, and be respectful of other people. Bottom line is that I’m a gamer and a consumer, and, just like you, my fellow gamers and consumers, I want my voice to be heard when it comes to the products I am purchasing and supporting. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. :)


  • Developer

    This is a tough one, I actually think that adding female characters to a game like this would make it appeal less to females. Which at first sounds strange, but from my experience of the general maturity level of the internet and the unfortunately male dominated FPS market… I don’t think that it would add to the experience for women or men given the actions that would likely occur.

    Hopefully that helps you understand why we decided not to go that route… I am totally fine with women fighting, but its the fact that it would probably overall harm the way the community would play the game that has me concerned.



  • @Tibberius:

    This is a tough one, I actually think that adding female characters to a game like this would make it appeal less to females. Which at first sounds strange, but from my experience of the general maturity level of the internet and the unfortunately male dominated FPS market… I don’t think that it would add to the experience for women or men given the actions that would likely occur.

    Hopefully that helps you understand why we decided not to go that route… I am totally fine with women fighting, but its the fact that it would probably overall harm the way the community would play the game that has me concerned.

    Now, in your very first paragraph, you are suggesting that women don’t or are unable, collectively, to deal with the odds, immaturity and harassment generally pitted against them. If that were true, there would be no female gamers, or characters for that matter. It’s just a fact of life.

    “Which at first sounds strange, but from my experience of the general maturity level of the internet and the unfortunately male dominated FPS market…”
    Sorry, but that’s plain not true, and forgive me, it’s a little patronizing. Is that seriously your argument? “Some people might be assholes, so we don’t want women characters”? Because that’s the impression I’m getting. If that were the case, they wouldn’t be playing your game (And they are). Trolls are going to troll, and they will find a way to do so, females or not. Is the FPS market male dominated? Probably. Are they going to give women guff for playing and sexualize female characters, etc? Yes. It’s unavoidable. But I think the first steps to take are developers including women in their development.

    “I don’t think that it would add to the experience for women or men given the actions that would likely occur.”
    Please explain what you mean by this, I don’t understand.

    “I am totally fine with women fighting, but its the fact that it would probably overall harm the way the community would play the game that has me concerned.”
    How? You’re simply speculating, and not providing logical reasons behind your counterpoint. Again, please explain what you mean by this, because that doesn’t make any sense to me.

    I’d also like to add that, with proper rule implementation, instances of harassment can definitely be avoided. Your wording is also disrespectful to men, the internet, and the FPS community as a whole. You make it sound like they’re uncivilized animals who can’t control their impulses by calling them “immature”. Those “Immature” people include your paying customers. If you’re concerned about behavior, let them know you mean business. People will respect you more for it anyway. As an example, 343 studios (developers of Halo 4) has implemented a lifetime ban for sexual harassment, which has received a great deal of positive reception. If it’s so “unfortunate” to you that the FPS market is male-dominated, this is a good opportunity to do something about it.



  • I just talked about it in teamspeak:

    I: LoL, there is someone who wants to add womans to the game.
    Answere: why? f**** ret***, thats total unhistoric, kills the historical charakter of the game.

    I kinda share their opinion…



  • @Kiritsugu:

    I just talked about it in teamspeak:

    I: LoL, there is someone who wants to add womans to the game.
    Answere: why? f**** ret***, thats total unhistoric, kills the historical charakter of the game.

    I kinda share their opinion…

    Well, I appreciate the insult– but…
    This is a fictional game; it may take its ideas and methods from historical inspiration, but it is certainly not historically accurate, so please spare me that argument-- it is illogical. And there are also plenty of historical women warriors.

    And, if you care so much about historical “accuracy”, why not even have female peasants? ;)



  • @Kiritsugu:

    I just talked about it in teamspeak:

    I: LoL, there is someone who wants to add womans to the game.
    Answere: why? f**** ret***, thats total unhistoric, kills the historical charakter of the game.

    I kinda share their opinion…

    proves to show much the next gen kids know about history…



  • Women were extremely rare on the battlefield. People point out Joan of Arc, but she was never on the front lines, shoulder to shoulder with the men.

    Usually the women warriors of history are a bit “buffed up” in their stories. A country that is fielding women to fight is making a mistake, as they are the ones that give you new soldiers for next generations war.



  • @Mashuu:

    Women were extremely rare on the battlefield. People point out Joan of Arc, but she was never on the front lines, shoulder to shoulder with the men.

    Usually the women warriors of history are a bit “buffed up” in their stories. A country that is fielding women to fight is making a mistake, as they are the ones that give you new soldiers for next generations war.

    But we’re not talking about historical accuracy (Even though I will point out that Joan of Arc is not the only example and there are plenty of others I could pull out.) If you were writing a book about history, then we’ve have a problem. But you’re not. Hi, You’re playing a video game, which is purely fictional. No one has to make any babies for the next generation of soldiers. No one even has to lose their arms, except in 3D. This argument makes no sense. My question was, what would the developers have to lose by implementing female counterparts to classes, or at least as NPCs? I want to know facts. Pros, cons, and details, not layman speculations or irrelevant discussion.



  • @Mashuu:

    Women were extremely rare on the battlefield. People point out Joan of Arc, but she was never on the front lines, shoulder to shoulder with the men.

    Usually the women warriors of history are a bit “buffed up” in their stories. A country that is fielding women to fight is making a mistake, as they are the ones that give you new soldiers for next generations war.

    Actully she lead the army of France to glory…



  • The reason I personaly dont want to see female playable characters is that in every compeditive FPS game I have ever played adding female characters just leads to every terrible player and even a large chunk of the skilled ones rolling with fems. Why is that a problem you ask? Well aside from messing with the authenticity of the game female characters will allmost allways have a smaller hitbox then the males and this leads to imbalance. I do agree its strange that none of the peasents are females so I would love to see them added in a patch.



  • @BMF:

    The reason I personaly dont want to see female playable characters is that in every compeditive FPS game I have ever played adding female characters just leads to every terrible player and even a large chunk of the skilled ones rolling with fems. Why is that a problem you ask? Well aside from messing with the authenticity of the game female characters will allmost allways have a smaller hitbox then the males and this leads to imbalance. I do agree its strange that none of the peasents are females so I would love to see them added in a patch.

    “Authencity?” Again, I hate to break it to you, but you’re playing a video game. It’s a fictional universe with made up characters and a made up plot(which really isn’t much of a plot, anyway, it’s pretty open ended, so it would be easy to modify it to include women, and I don’t think it would take away from the feel of the game). Your hitbox point is a valid concern, but I’m sure hat can be fixed with the right development. And also, assuming they’re in a full suit of armor and the character models are the same size, I don’t think that would be much of an issue. It’s not like I want to see them in a chainmail bikini ;) Ideally, I’d like women to be playable, but the fact that there are no female NPCs, to me, is pretty strange.



  • Getting new models, animations, and voices would take a huge amount of time and resources that the team doesn’t have right now.

    Maybe a mod, but nothing more.



  • Adding female characters to a game like this one is “Problematic” to say the least. There are so many things that need to be done right to avoid an uprising from one of the many groups that will play this game, and even some that won’t

    Realism:
    Yes there are several references to female warriors; but that’s because they were very rare. A female warrir had to overcome many many things to become one. They make good stories yes; very romantic, but it’s not realistic to add one

    But it’s a videogame things doesn’t need to be realistic:
    Yes they need to, it’s one of the selling points of this and many other games. Once a game has forfeited realism to please fans, next you will see flying mounts and bikini chainmails. Female soldiers are not ok in this setting, if you want some get some mods

    There are so many problems adding a female to a realistic game:
    A man being killed in a bloody way can be accepted in T rating sometimes less.
    A woman killed in the same way is M by default and you get feminist in your front door; claiming that this game promotes violence to women and spouting things like “rape culture” and the like



  • @Livipedia:

    @Kiritsugu:

    I just talked about it in teamspeak:

    I: LoL, there is someone who wants to add womans to the game.
    Answere: why? f**** ret***, thats total unhistoric, kills the historical charakter of the game.

    I kinda share their opinion…

    And, if you care so much about historical “accuracy”, why not even have female peasants? ;)

    I would be for that.

    And i didnt insult you, i just told you what people told me. btw sadly they are no kids anymore.



  • “Adding female characters to a game like this one is “Problematic” to say the least. There are so many things that need to be done right to avoid an uprising from one of the many groups that will play this game, and even some that won’t”

    Let me get this straight. You think that adding female characters will cause an uprising? I’ve yet. in my long history of gaming and community development, to see a game that has added females be met with anything but a majority of positivity and praise.

    “But it’s a videogame things doesn’t need to be realistic:
    Yes they need to, it’s one of the selling points of this and many other games. Once a game has forfeited realism to please fans, next you will see flying mounts and bikini chainmails. Female soldiers are not ok in this setting, if you want some get some mods”
    THIS GAME IS NOT REALISTIC. Please stop using that as a counterargument. You have red guys and blue guys. There is a fictional faction called the Agatha Knights, and a fictional faction called the Mason Order. They fight in a setting that is a construction of the developer’s imaginations. The developers do not have to put women in bikini chainmail in order to incorporate them– in fact I directly spoke out against that direction because it is objectifying and lewd.

    “There are so many problems adding a female to a realistic game”
    This game’s combat engine may be gritty in an attempt to replicate, to some degree, what combat might feel like with swords and primitive weapons, but the game as a whole is anything but realistic. Why is it a problem, again?

    A man being killed in a bloody way can be accepted in T rating sometimes less.
    A woman killed in the same way is M by default and you get feminist in your front door; claiming that this game promotes violence to women and spouting things like “rape culture” and the like

    Hi, I’m a feminist. I don’t think that means what you think it means. Feminism is about promoting equality for BOTH genders– it’s not about “us vs. them” or man-hating. I like to think of myself as a pretty nice, rational human being! In fact, men can be feminists, too! Female gamers as WELL as men WANT the woman sex to be represented, they WANT them to be in the thick of the fighting, and if you would like more information on that, I’d be happy to provide some articles, examples, polls, and further reading. What you’re thinking of is whiny soccer moms and the far right, who are never happy with video games and ratings in the first place.



  • @Kiritsugu:

    @Livipedia:

    @Kiritsugu:

    I just talked about it in teamspeak:

    I: LoL, there is someone who wants to add womans to the game.
    Answere: why? f**** ret***, thats total unhistoric, kills the historical charakter of the game.

    I kinda share their opinion…

    And, if you care so much about historical “accuracy”, why not even have female peasants? ;)

    I would be for that.

    And i didnt insult you, i just told you what people told me. btw sadly they are no kids anymore.

    Well, that’s a good step in the right direction!



  • @Blindga:

    Getting new models, animations, and voices would take a huge amount of time and resources that the team doesn’t have right now.

    Maybe a mod, but nothing more.

    I didn’t ask for it to be implemented RIGHT NOW. I understand it’s costly in time and money to add features to a game. Torn Banner is new to the scene, though, and I think this would be a great step for them to expand their existing audience. This suggestion is merely put out there in hopes of future consideration– and so far, I’m not getting much in the way of counterarguments that make a lot of sense, based on my experience :)



  • Feminism creeping in a board I frequent?

    Don’t you have some meet up where you scold men for spreading their legs on the bus?

    And no, I don’t buy the idea that “FEMINism” is equality for both genders. You obviously are a part of an inclusive group when you have the word “feminine” in your political label. I also bet you support affirmitive action.

    Anyways, adding female models wouldn’t do anything except have cosmetic variety. I don’t care if they are added or not, but who cares?



  • @Livipedia:

    Hi, I’m a feminist. I don’t think that means what you think it means. Feminism is about promoting equality for BOTH genders– it’s not about “us vs. them” or man-hating. In fact, men can be feminists, too! Female gamers as WELL as men WANT the woman sex to be represented, they WANT them to be in the thick of the fighting, and if you would like more information on that, I’d be happy to provide some articles, examples, polls, and further reading.

    First I want to state that I’m not picking a fight with you or anything but…
    You may or may not be part of the MANY groups that would be offended if this game (or many others) had female characters fighting. There are several groups of both genders that pursue a different way of thinking about what is and what’s not feminism.

    The developers have to make some choices at the time of designing a game. Adding females involves a lot of things, like voice acting, designing, modeling, scaling, testing and programing; and that’s a lot of work. All those things to create something that goes against the sense of realism of the game and calls some unwanted attention of people who unlike you have a different view of what feminism is.

    I think the choice is clear



  • “Adding female characters to a game like this one is “Problematic” to say the least. There are so many things that need to be done right to avoid an uprising from one of the many groups that will play this game, and even some that won’t”

    Let me get this straight. You think that adding female characters will cause an uprising? I’ve yet. in my long history of gaming and community development, to see a game that has added females be met with anything but a majority of positivity and praise.

    “But it’s a videogame things doesn’t need to be realistic:
    Yes they need to, it’s one of the selling points of this and many other games. Once a game has forfeited realism to please fans, next you will see flying mounts and bikini chainmails. Female soldiers are not ok in this setting, if you want some get some mods”
    THIS GAME IS NOT REALISTIC. Please stop using that as a counterargument. You have red guys and blue guys. There is a fictional faction called the Agatha Knights, and a fictional faction called the Mason Order. They fight in a setting that is a construction of the developer’s imaginations. The developers do not have to put women in bikini chainmail in order to incorporate them– in fact I directly spoke out against that direction because it is objectifying and lewd.

    “There are so many problems adding a female to a realistic game”
    This game’s combat engine may be gritty in an attempt to replicate, to some degree, what combat might feel like with swords and primitive weapons, but the game as a whole is anything but realistic. Why is it a problem, again?

    A man being killed in a bloody way can be accepted in T rating sometimes less.
    A woman killed in the same way is M by default and you get feminist in your front door; claiming that this game promotes violence to women and spouting things like “rape culture” and the like

    Hi, I’m a feminist. I don’t think that means what you think it means. Feminism is about promoting equality for BOTH genders-- it’s not about “us vs. them” or man-hating. I actually like to think of myself as a pretty nice, rational human being! In fact, men can be feminists, too! Female gamers as WELL as men WANT the woman sex to be represented, they WANT them to be in the thick of the fighting, and if you would like more information on that, I’d be happy to provide some articles, examples, polls, and further reading. What you’re thinking of is whiny soccer moms and the far right, who are never happy with video games and ratings in the first place


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