STAMINA - Making It Matter
Right now being Out of Stamina isn’t a big deal.
In FFA, I can spam back-to-back slash combos because I don’t care what happens when I run out - I simply wait a few moments before I’m swinging into crowds again.
In duels, I’m free to bottom out my stamina doing 5 dodges in a row - being OOS only means that I can’t feint for a couple seconds. I can destroy knights and vanguards with massive 2h weapons using a knife, because even if I’m out of stamina, they can’t hit me. With a shield, I can hold down one button and tank a 2h player forever. There are mechanics like variable stamina damage, feint costs, and block effectiveness depending on the weapon - mostly put to waste. Running out of stamina should mean something in combat.
With a few tweaks to stamina, I think many common gameplay frustrations (at all levels of play) will be addressed, and Chivalry will have more depth for long-term play.
Chip damage when blocking with insufficent stamina
There’s a mechanic/bug, where hits randomly slip through for full damage, when parrying while out of stamina. Make this a consistent, fully realized feature.
Damage chips through when blocking without stamina. This chip damage, or damage bleed-through, ranges from 10% (starting with the dagger) to 50% (with the maul). Chip damage never causes flinch or hitstun.
Here, we end up with a deeper strategic metagame where slower weapons can attempt to batter down the opponent’s stamina and defense through repeated strikes, while fast weapons continue to rely on feint pressure and fast pokes. Suddenly we have unique fighting styles and strategies for weapons, akin to character archetypes in fighting games (shotos vs grapplers), and races in Starcraft.
Slow weapons do more stamina damage to fast weapons on block
The prime example is maul vs hunting/piercing dagger. If both players are skilled, this is a 9-1 matchup against the maul user. Maul feints are too easy to read, and the dagger user can parry until the end of time. Even with bottomed out stamina, the maul user can never land a hit - the attack speed on the dagger is such that it can return pokes even after the OOS block knockback. This is ignoring the fact that the dagger user can evade, dodge, and poke between maul combo swings with enough time to block, just in case. The only hope the maul user has is for the dagger user to get bored/careless from all the wins, and try to trade hits.
Generally, the slow weapons are the massive, long-range, hard-hitting weapons - all bad for feinting, terrible for reaching around blocks, and have glacial recovery frames. The fast ones are lighter, shorter, do less damage.
Slower weapons should do more stamina damage against faster weapons on block. This means a maul devastates a dagger user’s stamina on block, does moderately more stamina damage against a claymore, and retains its current values against another maul, since they’re the same speed.
More pushback on-block and on-hit, and more hitstun on hit for specific weapons.
This isn’t a stamina tweak, but ties into the idea that there should be more unique playstyles and strategies for each weapon. Weapons like the halberd and zweihander rely on distance, but they are so slow that even if they manage to land a hit on me, I’m able to return an unblockable attack (from idle) with a two-hander, before their swing recovery frames are over. I get a free attack, and they’re punished because they did something right! Increase the hitstun on-hit against players in the idle state so this doesn’t happen. Increase the knockback on weapons like the zwei, so they have the chance to at least reset an engagement, and have a distinct keepaway playstyle.
Raised shields slowly drain stamina. Stamina drain begins immediately. Some weapons have boosted stamina damage against shields.
Against two-handers, it is incredibly easy to turtle indefinitely. It takes an entire 5 seconds for the stamina drain to kick in, and players can reset that by dropping block for a microsecond. Introduce an immediate, slow stamina drain to raised shields.
Increase the stamina damage taken when blocking slow weapons, like the double axe. Why not give arguably the worst weapon in the game a role? Make the double axe a devastating anti-shield, stamina depletion weapon.
Speed reduction when OOS
As an MAA fighting against any other class, I can carelessly burn through my stamina. When I’m bottomed out, I can either sprint away while my stamina regenerates, or simply walk backwards. I’m still absolutely threatening while backpedaling, and have high enough movespeed that I can stay away from your attack, and return my own during your recovery. Even if you’re another MAA, it’s extremely risky to try to take advantage of my downtime. I still have 100% mobility, faster than anyone else in the game - I just can’t dodge for a couple seconds.
A 10% movespeed reduction when out of stamina would give other classes a chance to pressure me - the two-hand users would at least have the chance to apply a single mix-up/feint before I’m back to 1% stamina, at full speed, darting in and out of their range again.
Martin last edited by
When I’m bottomed out, I can either sprint away while my stamina regenerates
That’s a bug that will be fixed eventually.
Really liked all your suggestions. Probably one of the first times I read something here that isn’t some moronic bullshit.
It makes sense, it’s simple, it’s possible to implement… love it.
I vouch for jest and his ideas. Most skilled player I’ve ever played against. You cant beat him with a 2h weapon.
This all sounds pretty good. Makes stamina mean more and enables more tactics.
+1. Good suggestions
Wow, extremely well written post. First time I think I’ve ever agreed with a suggestion in its entirety. I don’t think I could’ve written it better, even. All these suggestions make tons of sense and all seem relatively easy and quick to implement, most if not all would just be a few “if” checks.
I’ve always been upset by how insignificant stamina in itself is, and how completely unrealistic it is that battering a shield-user indefinitely does nothing to stop them from shielding themselves. Most of the game is very realistic, and it completely kills the whole feel of being in the world when I’m just battering this guy with a massive axe and he just shrugs it off. A knight swinging a battleaxe as hard as he could may not break a tower shield, but the person on the receiving end is certainly going to feel it, if not have a broken bone or two from it.
A spot on post that precisely identifies a major anomaly with the concept of stamina use/abuse. :)
Agreed, nothing to bring against this.
SlyGoat last edited by
I agree with more stamina usage in general. It should also be toned way down for kicks and shield bashes - they’re already almost useless at the moment because of how much stamina they sap from you, with increased stamina usage they would just be for trying to knock people into spikes/off cliffs for fun.
It’s pretty clear that we need to be looking at stamina and how it functions in combat. I agree that I find myself both rarely running out of stamina and also not really caring or noticing when I do.
wildwulfy last edited by
I feel pretty much that you have absolutely NO experience with slow weapons, I’m pretty much dominating the serverd with my maul, shields are no problem for me, I drain their stamina, then I try going for the weak spot. People shouldn’t come here and complain because they simply don’t find a technique to take down an powerful opponent. True that they may be out of stamina, but that doesn’t mean that you can totally understimate them and charge into them, altough shields perhaps needs a little fix.
But most of the other stuff I agree with you about having certain weapon drain more stamina against a shield, like a blunt weapon. But I don’t feel its right to buff the maul, I’ll feel like its too overpowered then, cause it CAN do some decent amount of damage if you know how to use it.
Don’t nerf / buff everything in this game so it becomes s noob friendly game :-;
I feel pretty much that you have absolutely NO experience with slow weapons
Steam invite sent. Let’s play.
wildwulfy last edited by
Sure, I’ll be home within a few hours.
Great ideas in initial post, this just simply has to be implemented! it would vastly improve the game.
A while ago I suggested using an improved stamina model. I wrote a Realistic Fatigue mod for Oblivion a while back, and did a fair amount of research to come up with a decent model. Oblivion had some pretty serious restrictions on what I could do so that mod didn’t quite do the model justice, but apparently 1000’s of people still thought it added a fun tactical element to the game.
Since posting that suggestion I’ve started to write a generic description of the model with a simple example implementation in Python at http://minkirri.apana.org.au/wiki/StaminaModel. It’s not 100% complete yet (I want to tidy it more and add stuff on attacking/blocking/drawing bows etc) but it’s mostly there. It takes into account encumbrance, health, stamina, and gradients to give you walking/running speeds and stamina burn/recovery rates.
Anyone is free to use this model… I just want to play games with a better stamina model :-)
Good ideas all around j3st and stamina really could be the way to go to make slow weapons viable.