Bought it, was disappointed, these are my tips



  • In this thread I want to share why I was let down by the game, and some elements that I think can be improved upon.

    First of all, please note that I am living in the Netherlands, I have a lot of spare time during the day and not a lot of money.

    Having said that, please note that a combination of these 3 is NOT turning out well for me. I bought this game for 22 euro’s after I saw some amazing let’s play video’s. So I thought ‘well, this is going to be awesome’. And the concept of the game IS awesome, just the execution of it isn’t. As I live in the Netherlands, where this game hasn’t really made a name for itself yet, there are almost no servers available with a decent latency. And since I am online during most of the day, and others aren’t, the servers that are there are uninhabited. And before you say: “well, pick a higher latency” - I tried, I really did, but the combination of a high ping with the gameplay makes this, shall we say, not an enjoyable experience, as blocking becomes just random mousespamming because you get decapitated without seeing a sword coming at you.

    I realize that what I wrote above is none of the developers faults and it’s just a shame that there aren’t anough servers available for me, but it adds frustration to the already frustrating gameplay. The following are elements of the game I like to point out.

    The main menu - useless and misplaced buttons
    You enter the game with the main menu, so I’d like to tackle this first. First of all, why is the ‘quit game’ button hidden somewhere in a corner? Are you trying to force people to stay in the game? I think the confirmation dialog does a good enough job on that. Please move the ‘quit game’ button where it belongs; at the bottom of your main menu.

    Then we move to the multiplayer lobby - the server list - and what is wrong here. Do the buttons on the left actually do anything? I can spam them all they want and sometimes they seem to do something, but the reaction time is soooooo slow. And I don’t get the feeling they do anything either because I do not get enough feedback. Outlining the text doesn’t cut it, especially when half the text disappears when outlined. I have set my game to 1920x1200 and this is what I see:

    The text of ‘favorites’ disappears as the text is moved to the right due to the outline. Also note that, even though ‘favorites’ is selected, the list is actually the full server list.

    PLEASE: make double clicking a server so that it tries to join that server.

    As I want to get a decent latency I sort my list on the ping column. But I noticed that it first sorts from high to low. What the… Why would anyone want to play on the highest latency possible? Please make the first sorting option to be from low to high latency.

    Gameplay issues - level design
    The levels and graphics look great! But do they feel great? No. I have had too many moments of frustration when I couldn’t walk up a single rock or boulder due to some hitbox screwing up. Same goes for some of the objectives which, if moved, just pin you to a wall.

    Talking about objectives. There is not enough feedback about those. Nowhere on the HUD can I find the status of the current objective. Like: extinguish the fire. Even though I think there is feedback in the form of sound, this does not capture the right kind of attention. The sounds from the objectives get overruled by many teammates and enemies shouting out battlecries. I’d like to see some visueal feedback somewhere in the HUD and a better way of using sounds to indicate objectives.

    Archers, shooting atoms and reloading like retards
    I mainly bought this game to play like a longbow archer. That sounded like a lot of fun at the time. But unfortunately, the archer class is broken in my opinion. The movements are too slow and, I don’t know if it’s me, they are unaccurate. Real archers don’t take ages to grab an arrow, pull the cord back or release the cord if they don’t want to shoot. Thay can do this very fast! So why can’t these trained archers do that? There is also no feedback on when you can shoot your arrow at full strength. I’d like to point to the sniper and his bow in Team Fortress 2 to get to know what I am talking about with a satisfying archery.

    Why did I mention ‘shooting atoms’ in this title? First of all: I can’t hit jack sh*t with my arrows. This is either lag, impossible hitboxes or I am just plain bad at it. I like to use arrowcam to know where my arrows are going, but even when my arrowcam shows a headshot, I don’t get any satisfying feedback I hit somebody (most of the time the arrow passes through with the person unharmed). And the arrowcam is horrifying as it sounds like an atom bomb is about to blow up.

    So the longbow didn’t wok out, on to the crossbow! Satisfying thud when released but a pain in the ass to reload, especially since you’re grounded the whole time! I can see enemies approaching and archers draw their bows at me and I can’t do anything? Not even cancel the reload to find cover? C’mon…

    Every single footsoldier - and why I don’t like them
    The action is sooooooooo slooooooooow! And much like the crossbow reloading; once you start an action, you can’t stop it. I don’t feel like I am in control of my character.

    Heads Up Display
    I have talked about the objectives that should get an permanent spot somewhere on your HUD. So you know what to do, and your dumbass teammates know that too (instead of rushing headfirst into the enemy spawnpoint while the enemy is taking all objectives).

    Also take a look at the kill list on the right top of the screen. It isn’t clear for me when I kill somebody! It’s fairly easy to make your own kills/deaths stand out in this list and it improves gameplay by so much to know who killed you and who you did kill. That includes adding some sound feedback for archers who hit somebody.

    The End
    Well, that was most of it anyway. I have a lot more points but don’t know how to formulate them without sounding like a douche. With most points I can point to games of Valve to check how to improve it! As with all art and creations; you don’t have to reinvent the wheel! The concept of this game is great, but it lacks gameplay elements that would make this awesome and really take off.

    Like the title says; I am disappointed by the game, but I write this long story the share my disappointment and how I think the developers can improve the game. So leave your flame comments at home and I will reply with care if someone asks me to elaborate some of my points of view. I hope this thread reaches one of the developers and I hope it can help toward a better game so that I have not entirely wasted my cash.

    Cheers!



  • Wow, it’s a great post, I commend you for that.

    You’re right about the server browser, I’ve noticed problems too, but they are fixing it, there is an update coming. (They are fixing it, not trying to fix it :))
    I agree that the objectives have some clarity issues, especially the fire you mentioned. This needs HUD improvements.
    There really are some dodgy points in some maps, but they are getting listed on these forums already.

    I think your problems with the archer classes are mainly latency issues. Although the arrow cam really does sound awful.
    The crossbow reloading and what you call “not being in control of your character”, I feel are game play mechanics. I think it would get ridiculously complicated if you could stop your strike at any point, there are already “faints” in the game.

    I think you should bring out all your points, even the ones you’re not really sure about, and the ones that sound, like you said “like a douche”. It’s a good idea to try and discuss about them.

    Flamers are a problem that can’t really be gotten rid of. We just have to endure it. :D



  • @SirJire:

    You enter the game with the main menu, so I’d like to tackle this first. First of all, why is the ‘quit game’ button hidden somewhere in a corner? Are you trying to force people to stay in the game? I think the confirmation dialog does a good enough job on that. Please move the ‘quit game’ button where it belongs; at the bottom of your main menu.

    This is an oversight, I think, from a time in the alpha where there was no confirmation for quit. I agree that logically now that there is a confirmation quit should be moved to the center column with the rest of the options.

    @SirJire:

    Then we move to the multiplayer lobby - the server list - and what is wrong here. Do the buttons on the left actually do anything? I can spam them all they want and sometimes they seem to do something, but the reaction time is soooooo slow. And I don’t get the feeling they do anything either because I do not get enough feedback. Outlining the text doesn’t cut it, especially when half the text disappears when outlined. I have set my game to 1920x1200 and this is what I see:

    The entire server browser is being rebuilt for the next patch (hopefully this week) and while I can’t comment on any specific issues I think it’ll be just an overall improvement in all areas. Some of the problems with the current server browser are an unfortunate side-effect of a hotfix that had to be implemented to address some things that were causing the server browser to crash the game. It wasn’t an extremely common crash, but it was common enough for some users that this rudimentary , temporary fix was rolled out while the new browser was being worked on.

    @SirJire:

    The levels and graphics look great! But do they feel great? No. I have had too many moments of frustration when I couldn’t walk up a single rock or boulder due to some hitbox screwing up. Same goes for some of the objectives which, if moved, just pin you to a wall.

    There’s a thread dedicated to level design feedback for rooting out issues with clipping and such, and I’m fairly certain a huge heap of these are fixed up for the next patch. This is a constant WIP though, it’s obviously somewhat difficult to make sure every single nook of every map is completely smooth.

    @SirJire:

    Talking about objectives. There is not enough feedback about those. Nowhere on the HUD can I find the status of the current objective. Like: extinguish the fire. Even though I think there is feedback in the form of sound, this does not capture the right kind of attention. The sounds from the objectives get overruled by many teammates and enemies shouting out battlecries. I’d like to see some visueal feedback somewhere in the HUD and a better way of using sounds to indicate objectives.

    Objective progress is displayed on the scoreboard (TAB by default) - it will show you what % of the way a cart is pushed, how many peasants have been killed, etc. Some objectives don’t show properly though, and more feedback for players on objective progress is definitely something that could be improved - such as a health bar indicator over the barricades on the last objective of darkforest, etc.

    @SirJire:

    I mainly bought this game to play like a longbow archer. That sounded like a lot of fun at the time. But unfortunately, the archer class is broken in my opinion. The movements are too slow and, I don’t know if it’s me, they are unaccurate. Real archers don’t take ages to grab an arrow, pull the cord back or release the cord if they don’t want to shoot. Thay can do this very fast! So why can’t these trained archers do that? There is also no feedback on when you can shoot your arrow at full strength. I’d like to point to the sniper and his bow in Team Fortress 2 to get to know what I am talking about with a satisfying archery.

    Why did I mention ‘shooting atoms’ in this title? First of all: I can’t hit jack sh*t with my arrows. This is either lag, impossible hitboxes or I am just plain bad at it. I like to use arrowcam to know where my arrows are going, but even when my arrowcam shows a headshot, I don’t get any satisfying feedback I hit somebody (most of the time the arrow passes through with the person unharmed). And the arrowcam is horrifying as it sounds like an atom bomb is about to blow up.

    So the longbow didn’t wok out, on to the crossbow! Satisfying thud when released but a pain in the ass to reload, especially since you’re grounded the whole time! I can see enemies approaching and archers draw their bows at me and I can’t do anything? Not even cancel the reload to find cover? C’mon…

    I think your experience with archery may be hampered by the earlier statements that you’re playing on higher latency servers. You’ll likely have to lead your shots further ahead to hit accurately if you’re experiencing high ping.

    It’s generally agreed that crossbows are very weak right now, so expect some improvements for them in the near future.

    @SirJire:

    The action is sooooooooo slooooooooow! And much like the crossbow reloading; once you start an action, you can’t stop it. I don’t feel like I am in control of my character.

    You actually can. During the windup of a swing you can feint it (Q by default) to cancel the swing and perform another action. Once you start swinging however, the momentum of your swing makes it impossible to interrupt.

    @SirJire:

    I have talked about the objectives that should get an permanent spot somewhere on your HUD. So you know what to do, and your dumbass teammates know that too (instead of rushing headfirst into the enemy spawnpoint while the enemy is taking all objectives).

    As already mentioned, objective progress is tracked on the scoreboard. There are also indicators over the objectives which can be enabled/disabled. The game has a very minimal HUD by design, to keep it as immersive as possible.

    @SirJire:

    Also take a look at the kill list on the right top of the screen. It isn’t clear for me when I kill somebody! It’s fairly easy to make your own kills/deaths stand out in this list and it improves gameplay by so much to know who killed you and who you did kill. That includes adding some sound feedback for archers who hit somebody.

    I agree with this, a highlight over your own kills/deaths would be good. Archers already have visual feedback when they land a hit - the crosshair turns red.

    @SirJire:

    Well, that was most of it anyway. I have a lot more points but don’t know how to formulate them without sounding like a douche. With most points I can point to games of Valve to check how to improve it! As with all art and creations; you don’t have to reinvent the wheel! The concept of this game is great, but it lacks gameplay elements that would make this awesome and really take off.

    Like the title says; I am disappointed by the game, but I write this long story the share my disappointment and how I think the developers can improve the game. So leave your flame comments at home and I will reply with care if someone asks me to elaborate some of my points of view. I hope this thread reaches one of the developers and I hope it can help toward a better game so that I have not entirely wasted my cash.

    Cheers!

    I’m sorry to hear you’re not satisfied with the game, but there are a number of fixes and improvements coming very soon, and new content is also in the works already. Constructive criticism is always a healthy thing for a game, so I hope nobody will hold your opinion against you, and I also sincerely hope you’ll give Chivalry another shot later on after some of your concerns have been addressed.



  • Great post, super constructive. But yes, you are just bad if you miss alot as archer.

    Hope they read this thread.



  • @SirJire:

    Archers, shooting atoms and reloading like retards
    I mainly bought this game to play like a longbow archer. That sounded like a lot of fun at the time. But unfortunately, the archer class is broken in my opinion. The movements are too slow and, I don’t know if it’s me, they are unaccurate. Real archers don’t take ages to grab an arrow, pull the cord back or release the cord if they don’t want to shoot. Thay can do this very fast! So why can’t these trained archers do that? There is also no feedback on when you can shoot your arrow at full strength. I’d like to point to the sniper and his bow in Team Fortress 2 to get to know what I am talking about with a satisfying archery.

    And this is where you got it all wrong.

    First of all, shooting a medieval Longbow is very exhausting. It is known that Longbow archers only shot ~3 arrows a minute, so they are still able to shoot an hour later. Battles were going on for hours, you can´t just transform into a machine gun with a bow that has a draw weight of round about 100lbs! (some more, some less…)

    The movement is too slow? Kids these days… What is it with the demand to be speedy gonzales in a video game? Movement must not be ANY faster in Chiv as it is now, or it would reach the lol-border.

    Bad accuracy? In Chivalry the bows are hilariously accurate! Any RL archer would sell his soul to the devil for the ability to shoot like that. In Chiv, every shot hits the center, no matter what distance. Only thing to worry about is the arrow drop, which is also very easy to guess/compensate.

    And you just made me explode in tears of laughter when you compared TF2 “archery” to RL archery… WTF… An indication when your bow is fully drawn? In Chiv (like in RL!) you always draw your bow completely back until your arrow-holding hand touches your face. You pull the string back to your cheek, nose or eye - depends on styl/preference. You don´t just pull it half way back and release… where did you get this idea from? Oh right… TF2, known to be super realZ…
    You only can shoot fully drawn and this is achieved by even klicking the mouse, you dont have to hold it - IIRC.

    Why do you talk about realistic archery/real life archers if you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about? You obviously never shot a bow in your life, ever.

    I don´t say archery is fine like it is in Chivalry, but your point of view is totally off, really.

    Also, I strongly disagree with the HUD.
    A permanent spot, somewhere, to show you what to do? WTF?

    _- Join game

    • Check what to do (burn something down, protect, push, …?)
    • Check the all-mighty floating objective pointer
    • GO THERE/DO WHAT IT SAYS_

    “Jesus, wow. Yeah, that is complicated and demanding! I really need more blinky stuff on my screen, telling me more about those incredible difficult objectives, quick!”

    WTF happened to mankind!? Seriously now! :o
    Gimme a break!



  • @William:

    First of all, shooting a medieval Longbow is very exhausting. It is known that Longbow archers only shot ~3 arrows a minute, so they are still able to shoot an hour later. Battles were going on for hours, you can´t just transform into a machine gun with a bow that has a draw weight of round about 100lbs! (some more, some less…)

    If you want more info on this, or other medieval weapons, try Lindybeige on Youtube.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/lindybeige

    Here is a video on bows by him:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzGRYEtkL_w

    Edit: I’m not saying this to you Godfrey, I’m showing it to everybody, and wanted to point out that you brought out the important points already. ;)



  • @William:

    And you just made me explode in tears of laughter when you compared TF2 “archery” to RL archery… WTF… An indication when your bow is fully drawn? In Chiv (like in RL!) you always draw your bow completely back until your arrow-holding hand touches your face. You pull the string back to your cheek, nose or eye - depends on styl/preference. You don´t just pull it half way back and release… where did you get this idea from? Oh right… TF2, known to be super realZ…
    You only can shoot fully drawn and this is achieved by even klicking the mouse, you dont have to hold it - IIRC.

    Why do you talk about realistic archery/real life archers if you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about? You obviously never shot a bow in your life, ever.

    Well, thank you for proving the flaming point at the end of my post, don’t attack a person head-on if you don’t know anything about the person. To be fair: I have shot my share of bow and arrows, but since I am physically rather strong I have had no problem launching a few arrows, though they may not have been as accurate as trained professionals.

    The point I am trying to get across is that I (as in me, myself and I, not anyone else) find the archery, gameplay wise, not very satisfying. I am not pointing at TF2 for realism, I have never seen a soldier trying to blast himself to the top of a structure in real life, but merely the satisfaction. As I do not feel the bow in Chivalry I need other ways to tell me if it is fully drawn, an on-screen indicator is one of the possibilities (like the one in TF2). I point at TF2 because I know through their commentaries that they put a sh*tload of effort in user experience and the satisfaction of playing. I am not saying that Torn Banner does not do this because I do not know that. What I am saying is is that there is a fine line between realism and gameplay experience. Since you can’t emulate a real battlefield experience with the feeling of a drawn bow, or a swinging sword, you need other kinds of feedback.

    And telling me that “kids want it all fast these days” is kind of strange. Are you saying medieval warfare was slow? I can’t tell because I wasn’t there but my guess is that in the midst of a battle you either run away from your enemy or you try to kill them all as fast as possible.

    Either way, thank you for commenting so that I can explain myself a bit better.



  • @WerQ:

    @William:

    Here is a video on bows by him:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzGRYEtkL_w

    I like that one! Not to the point of Chivalry the game; but I agree and disagree with this man. If I draw back the string on a small bow 'till the point it breaks, while I have much more power in me, I need a bigger bow that I can pull back further. Which, in my opinion, makes it a more powerful bow on the same person. :)



  • @SirJire:

    @WerQ:

    @William:

    Here is a video on bows by him:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzGRYEtkL_w

    I like that one! Not to the point of Chivalry the game; but I agree and disagree with this man. If I draw back the string on a small bow 'till the point it breaks, while I have much more power in me, I need a bigger bow that I can pull back further. Which, in my opinion, makes it a more powerful bow on the same person. :)

    His point was that a stronger bow doesn’t make a stronger archers, that the bow can’t be stronger than the archer. :D
    He didn’t mean that it doesn’t matter how many pounds of force the bow can direct.
    I’ve been doing archery for about 4 years now myself, I own a re-curve bow. (Not sure about the translation)



  • @SirJire:

    As I live in the Netherlands, where this game hasn’t really made a name for itself yet, there are almost no servers available with a decent latency.

    I also live in the Netherlands and I have no trouble finding servers with a decent ping. I only play during evenings so I cannot comment on how it is during daytime.

    What do you consider decent latency if I may ask?



  • I find up to 80 decent, any higher and other games start acting laggy in my experience. But I don’t have cable either, I’m on an ADSL line with 90 kB/s up en 550 kB/s down. In my first post here you can sort of see the amount of people on low latency servers at about 11 AM: 0 in most ;)



  • That is likely the case. I live in The Netherlands and can always find a ~50 ping server available filled with people, even when I try at 3 am. Takes some searching though since indeed, the server list is currently a little fucked up.

    For the record, I have about 1 mb download speed and even that is considered slow :P



  • Another dutch guy here.

    Servers are fine, even during the day (just finished exams so have more time outside the evenings).
    Especially the official ones (2, 8 - 9 has more lag) are pretty lag free and one of them is always full during the day. Haven’t had one occurrence where I couldn’t find a full server with less than 80 ping during the day, and I play the game since launch.

    About the OP:
    Although I respect the way you put the points forward, you should have searched for some information on the forums, before posting this on the forums. A lot of the issues you have are lag-related or is being worked on and as such do not need another thread to mention them.

    The problems you put forward are present, but I think when you join one of the servers I mentioned above, your experience would already be much better and a lot of your issues will be gone, or at least severely limited.

    Keep in mind that the game is just released and the first big patch will already be released within the week (probably)

    Note: I did laugh a little about the quit button, C:MW is far from the only game having the quit button at a different place on the screen. I actually prefer it where it is now, since its function is completely different from the options how to start the game.



  • OP:
    You could always create your own free-for all server with bots to help you differentiate between dodgy game mechanics and latency issues in regards to your specific dissatisfaction with the game play. :|



  • @Nivve:

    Another dutch guy here.

    Servers are fine, even during the day (just finished exams so have more time outside the evenings).
    Especially the official ones (2, 8 - 9 has more lag) are pretty lag free and one of them is always full during the day. Haven’t had one occurrence where I couldn’t find a full server with less than 80 ping during the day, and I play the game since launch.

    About the OP:
    Although I respect the way you put the points forward, you should have searched for some information on the forums, before posting this on the forums. A lot of the issues you have are lag-related or is being worked on and as such do not need another thread to mention them.

    The problems you put forward are present, but I think when you join one of the servers I mentioned above, your experience would already be much better and a lot of your issues will be gone, or at least severely limited.

    Keep in mind that the game is just released and the first big patch will already be released within the week (probably)

    Note: I did laugh a little about the quit button, C:MW is far from the only game having the quit button at a different place on the screen. I actually prefer it where it is now, since its function is completely different from the options how to start the game.

    Thanks for the reply. As I said, my connection is not the best around, that’s why I only find empty or high-latency servers. But with other online games I don’t have these problems during the day =)

    And about searching the forums: I am aware of the issues posted there, but in this case I wanted to state my ‘dissatisfaction’ as a whole.

    What is the name of the server that you mentioned? Might give that one a shot.

    And about the ‘quit’ button; I have recently graduated in communications and media design with a lot of Interaction Design. Which is why I get bothered with interfaces and such. I have worked a semester with the UDK as well, and it is capable of so much! So I really hope that the upcoming major patches will improve my user experience as well :)

    @Grüne_Ritter:

    OP:
    You could always create your own free-for all server with bots to help you differentiate between dodgy game mechanics and latency issues in regards to your specific dissatisfaction with the game play. :|

    Been there, done that. Although the IQ of the bots is about the same as the cast of Jersey Shore. So no challenge there ;)



  • @SirJire:

    Thanks for the reply. As I said, my connection is not the best around, that’s why I only find empty or high-latency servers. But with other online games I don’t have these problems during the day =)

    And about searching the forums: I am aware of the issues posted there, but in this case I wanted to state my ‘dissatisfaction’ as a whole.

    What is the name of the server that you mentioned? Might give that one a shot.

    And about the ‘quit’ button; I have recently graduated in communications and media design with a lot of Interaction Design. Which is why I get bothered with interfaces and such. I have worked a semester with the UDK as well, and it is capable of so much! So I really hope that the upcoming major patches will improve my user experience as well :)

    I play mainly on the Multiplay official (classic) TO servers. In my experience #2 and #8 are fine, but #1 and #9 have some quirks (hits do not land and hits hit through shields) multiple people have everytime I play on those servers. #32 I play on rarely but I did not have much lag on that one either.
    Just search for “official” (I always filter on ping<100, TO and remove passworded) and you will see them. Notice that they are Team Objective, I rarely play anything else.

    I did not study anything on a quit button, just stated my preferences :D
    You probably would know that better than I do.



  • @Nivve:

    I play mainly on the Multiplay official (classic) TO servers. In my experience #2 and #8 are fine, but #1 and #9 have some quirks (hits do not land and hits hit through shields) multiple people have everytime I play on those servers. #32 I play on rarely but I did not have much lag on that one either.
    Just search for “official” (I always filter on ping<100, TO and remove passworded) and you will see them. Notice that they are Team Objective, I rarely play anything else.

    I did not study anything on a quit button, just stated my preferences :D
    You probably would know that better than I do.

    I just played on one of those Official servers and my experience was a lot better than my last plays! Actually enjoyed it, thanks for the tip.

    And lol :D



  • Good to hear that it is better now, glad I could be of some help ;)
    I know from my launch day experiences that outside of the official servers there are loads of bad servers (latency-wise), maybe optimization faults, and it can be extremely frustrating.


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