Got more kill with the butcher knife than with the Bow



  • Please focus on the end of my post, it’s the most relevant part.
    All in the title. The bow is just terrible. I have an easier time killing people with this small pathetic knife than with any kind of bows.

    I know some of the brainiacs here have become decent with the bow, yet I believe that is a small minority, most archers I see don’t have any idea of what they are doing (like me) and are easy prey for me when I’m meleeing.
    I found out that Half of my kills when I’m a vanguard are archers, while I almost never get killed by an arrow.
    I’m sure some of you bow maniacs will be coming with the : ‘‘It’s more difficult to use but it’s powerful when you get used to it’’. Well quite frankly I’ve been playing with it for hours and still get a luck kill every 10 min.
    If you need more time to become good with it, then you are compensating for it’s relative weakness.

    The bow mechanism are awkward. I played a little bit of warband and WOTR beta before coming here and although I sincerely hate these 2 games, the Bow is a vastly smoother experience there.

    The crosshair is terribly imprecise, but worst, the mouse sensitivity is a nightmare . Why does the mouse becomes so clumsy when you aim? Why? Why does it have to slow down that much and become so irresponsible?
    The unresponsiveness of the mouse is what prevent a smooth experience and learning curve when using the bow. It’s unintuitive, it’s clumsy, awkward and frustrating.
    Furthermore, there is an annoyingly long delay before the arrow actually gets released from the bow, contributing to making it harder and more difficult to aim properly.
    I believe I share this opinion with more than just a few people. Every single review of chivalry criticize the Bow mechanism, saying ranged experience is the weak point of the game, finding it unpleasant and frustrating.
    W**hen every single critics praise the game for being an incredible melee experience, yet find the ranged (especially the bow) to be the only weak point, then this means you may have something to fix.

    **



  • I confirm alot of this.
    You have to spend sooo much time to get usful at all as an archer but thats not what buggs me. Eventually, I spent that time and slowly I felt more comfortable with the bow I saw lots of ppl fall to it. Then I joined a clan and went for some competetive play and thats exactly when I realized what actually happened.
    I learned how to farm newbies, thats all. In my opinion, you will get significally better at hitting your target after a decent playtime ( Your skill increases). It’s this stage where meleenoobs below rank 20 who are used to slashspamming and those who just learned how to deal with it usually grow an anger against archers. All of them end up here demanding nerfs und creating hideous tierlists… However thats not the end of the story.
    This game leaves a wide door for melees who want to learn how to actually counter archers. If you find yourself trying to hit a higher rank of meleeplayer in this stage you will realize, whatever you try to learn and train, they can learn and train against it. You may be able to kill unaware, lazy and unskilled enemies, but decent players are only hitable by chance. (Their counterskill increases too)
    This is not taken into account or even admitted by many of those who demand a nerf.
    The whole scenario will become more obvious after the average player has more than 15h gameplay time.

    After all, this sounds like there is a balance between melees and archers in this game, yet so many people complain about it in one or the other way. I personally think archery takes too less playerskill into account due to the slow arrowvelocity and there is yet someone to prove me wrong about it in my thread.
    First thing we should do is waiting for the first patch.
    After that we might need an official statement on how the dev’s see archery in this game ( because many people think they should removed completely as there is no place in a melee focused game in the first place). Anyway, Not many are satisfied with how it goes now.

    Btw, crossbows don’t slow you down while aiming which is one of the rare advantages they have over bows, so I’m happy with that as removing it would make crossbows even more pointless.

    *edit: to clearify: the dev’s statement should be about what archer are supposed to accomplish in this game, so we can stop jamming about they’re too good / bad in a certain perspective or for a certain situation ingame and start thinking if the got what they need to accomplish this or not.



  • I’m certainly not condoning a nerf, but I do feel your posts are not properly accounting for the fact that archery has a higher skill & effectiveness ceiling.

    Imagine the hypothetical ‘perfect’ Archer; they never miss a shot, and always (where physically possible) get headshots.
    Such an Archer would be far FAR more effective than the ‘perfect’ MaA/Vanguard/Knight.
    While it’s fair to say there will never be any ‘perfect’ archers, the ceiling toward which players ability will tend toward is obviously higher.

    Combine excellent archery skills with proper teamplay (not the trash play you find in pub servers) and I foresee the potential for archers to dominate on most maps & game modes.

    That said, I have yet to encounter any players able to fully utilize the full potential of the class, but I do recognise the potential is there - it’ll just take time for the community to develop the necessary skills & strategies for the class to shine.

    Whether the game will hold players’ interest long enough for this to happen is another topic entirely.



  • @TehJumpingJawa:

    Imagine the hypothetical ‘perfect’ Archer; they never miss a shot, and always (where physically possible) get headshots.

    My whole point was: ^This is not possible, except for you play against a newbie that has NO dodging / shieldusing ability whatsoever. Ingame reality is, archer’s skill vs dodging skill and both count about equal at least.

    • edit to clearify myself again:
      I don’t know how many of you have experienced a decent archer duel so far. They are redicolous! At a certain distance ( Which is unbelieable short tbh) you can stop your random dodging move which aims for unpredictablity and just wait for the arrow. If you don’t grow lazy or start lagging, you’re always able to watch the arrow flying and then dodge it on purpose. This is exploitable to an extent that a good archer duel usually ends after both refillied ammo once or twice and just start to focus on easier targets. Nobody died. About 100 arrows went nowhere.
      This is an example that shows why archery may be considered lacking.


  • @akarnir:

    **…If you need more time to become good with it, then you are compensating for it’s relative weakness.

    When every single critics praise the game for being an incredible melee experience, yet find the ranged (especially the bow) to be the only weak point, then this means you may have something to fix.

    In regards to your first comment, take the bardiche, a very powerful weapon that can kill in 2-3 hits. It will take time to become good with the bardiche because, in a teamfight if you go in spamming you will kill your teammates and kill 1 enemy while taking out 2-3 of your own, which is a loss if you think about it. Even in 1v1 the bardiche can be easily countered due to its slow speed. To become good with the bardiche, one needs practice to learn the timings and range of its attacks. Even though this weapon is very strong, you still need to take time to “…become good with it.” So your statement about the bow being weak because you need time to compensate for its relative weakness is incorrect. The bow is actually very strong if you get a headshot, the only weapon in the game that can one shot someone. (I know it won’t one shot kill a knight, but I believe it damages ~90% of his health.)

    In regards to your second comment, if it actually takes time to get good with the bow, the critics may not have had sufficient time to devote to using it to become good with, so therefore, that would lead to a negative review of the game saying that ranged was lacking. As I said before, it is the only weapon in the game that can score a one shot kill with a headshot, besides a knight.

    Edit: As a bowman, you also have to take into consideration that you are out of harm’s way. You can sit back in a safe spot (unless you are being shot at), and try to pick off anyone.**



  • the upcoming patch will give us new ranged crosshairs, making it easier, but i like it this way. In real life it also takes allot of skill to master a certain weapon, it would be a mess if every weapon you can choose could make you Conan slashing heads in the name of Crom!



  • @Escadin:

    @TehJumpingJawa:

    Imagine the hypothetical ‘perfect’ Archer; they never miss a shot, and always (where physically possible) get headshots.

    My whole point was: ^This is not possible, except for you play against a newbie that has NO dodging / shieldusing ability whatsoever. Ingame reality is, archer’s skill vs dodging skill and both count about equal at least.

    Did you intentionally omit my second sentence?

    @TehJumpingJawa:

    While it’s fair to say there will never be any ‘perfect’ archers, the ceiling toward which players ability will tend toward is obviously higher.

    Yes, a sword is easier to use, and for the vast majority of players it’ll be more effective.

    However, there is a skill level at which (in a teamplay environment) a balanced force composed of both melee & archers will be able to out perform an equally skilled force comprised of only melee.

    Though I don’t think this skill level has been reached by many, or perhaps any, of today’s community members.

    @Escadin:

    • edit to clearify myself again:
      I don’t know how many of you have experienced a decent archer duel so far. They are redicolous! At a certain distance ( Which is unbelieable short tbh) you can stop your random dodging move which aims for unpredictablity and just wait for the arrow. If you don’t grow lazy or start lagging, you’re always able to watch the arrow flying and then dodge it on purpose. This is exploitable to an extent that a good archer duel usually ends after both refillied ammo once or twice and just start to focus on easier targets. Nobody died. About 100 arrows went nowhere.
      This is an example that shows why archery may be considered lacking.

    This is quite irrelevant; the archer is not a dueling or 1v1 class.
    The archer is a supporting class, a force multiplier if you will.
    A good archer sits at the back and tips the balance of the melee furball in the favour of their team.
    They do this in several ways:

    • First Strike: By weakening enemies before they engage, so that trading of blows (common at high skill level melee) results in a friendly victory.
    • Suppression: A player’s movement options are restricted when they’re being targeted by an archer, as they have to keep their exposed areas to a minimum.
    • Distraction: This goes hand-in-hand with suppression; in a 1v1 the presence & threat of a supporting archer is often enough of a distraction to tip the balance of a fight, even if the archer doesn’t fire a single shot.
    • Focus-fire: Archer combat effectiveness scales linearly. if 1 archer does D damage; 10 archers do ~10D damage. Melee does not scale in such a simple fashion, and exhibits a sublinear relationship. 10 melee characters will do less than 10D damage, as past a certain threshold (~2-3 combatants) they’re effectiveness drops off. (they get in each others’ way)


  • As someone that practices Archery in RL. The bows in this game are super low in quality. The aiming is very unrealistic mainly due to how the arrow drops. The arrow Drop is super unrealistic. An arrow doesn’t drop that quickly, nor does it travel as slow as it does in this game. Especially one with a bodkin tip on it.

    I wish they would just go back to the Age of Chivalry mechanics for Archer. No cross-hair and more instinctual. And the Arrow drop wasn’t bad at all.



  • The drop on the arrow does seem a little absurd.



  • @TehJumpingJawa:

    Did you intentionally omit my second sentence?

    What’s the effective difference between a low and an unreachable skill “ceiling”? ^^ I think there is non, that’s why i cut it.

    @TehJumpingJawa:

    However, there is a skill level at which (in a teamplay environment) a balanced force composed of both melee & archers will be able to out perform an equally skilled force comprised of only melee.

    […]

    This is quite irrelevant; the archer is not a dueling or 1v1 class.
    The archer is a supporting class, a force multiplier if you will.
    A good archer sits at the back and tips the balance of the melee furball in the favour of their team.
    They do this in several ways:

    • First Strike: By weakening enemies before they engage, so that trading of blows (common at high skill level melee) results in a friendly victory.
    • Suppression: A player’s movement options are restricted when they’re being targeted by an archer, as they have to keep their exposed areas to a minimum.
    • Distraction: This goes hand-in-hand with suppression; in a 1v1 the presence & threat of a supporting archer is often enough of a distraction to tip the balance of a fight, even if the archer doesn’t fire a single shot.
    • Focus-fire: Archer combat effectiveness scales linearly. if 1 archer does D damage; 10 archers do ~10D damage. Melee does not scale in such a simple fashion, and exhibits a sublinear relationship. 10 melee characters will do less than 10D damage, as past a certain threshold (~2-3 combatants) they’re effectiveness drops off. (they get in each others’ way)

    You’re right, because too many meleeplayer will stand in eachother’s way and due to the points you made above: As long as a rangedweapon is available - regardless of how bad it is - it becomes more effective to add one of those to a team at a certain playercount.
    Anyhow, all of this is archieved just by choosing the bow. On the one hand this is a huge impact on the battletide for such a low effort, on the other hand nothing of this is really much affected by playerskill. The pressure of an arrowshower will be there, nomatter if it hits or not. Still, this is no answer to “it’s very very hard to hit a dodging target, even if you aim properly”, but one of the perspectivechanges I refered to in my first reply. If archer are a passive pressure building supportclass then yes, they are fine, but there’s no skill required for that whatsoever and that’s quite frustrating to play.
    Additionally, I like to believe archers are supposed to kill other archers too, in which case my scenario is not irrelevant. There are broadhead arrows after all.



  • @Vunak:

    As someone that practices Archery in RL. The bows in this game are super low in quality. The aiming is very unrealistic mainly due to how the arrow drops. The arrow Drop is super unrealistic. An arrow doesn’t drop that quickly, nor does it travel as slow as it does in this game. Especially one with a bodkin tip on it.

    I wish they would just go back to the Age of Chivalry mechanics for Archer. No cross-hair and more instinctual. And the Arrow drop wasn’t bad at all.

    While realistism means nothing to gameplay, I’d love to see this. +1

    –------

    Sorry for double post



  • @Escadin:

    @Vunak:

    As someone that practices Archery in RL. The bows in this game are super low in quality. The aiming is very unrealistic mainly due to how the arrow drops. The arrow Drop is super unrealistic. An arrow doesn’t drop that quickly, nor does it travel as slow as it does in this game. Especially one with a bodkin tip on it.

    I wish they would just go back to the Age of Chivalry mechanics for Archer. No cross-hair and more instinctual. And the Arrow drop wasn’t bad at all.

    While realistism means nothing to gameplay, I’d love to see this. +1

    –------

    Sorry for double post

    Yeah + 1 to Vunak. Arrow velocity and bending curve are very annoying. One more thing to fix.

    I saw many videos of AOC archery. It seemed far more intuitive, and fun than now.



  • Another +1 for Vunak.

    As for the “perfect archer” vs “Perfect ____” argument, as pointed out elsewhere, shields will almost entirely thwart an archer, unless the archer is flanking. Flanking isn’t really useful as a balance argument, considering any class can get over its weak points while flanking an enemy.

    Shields should always be a consideration not merely for an easy way to block (parrying is currently superior in every aspect, not mentioning the shield bug) but for a powerful defense against archers, the same way people consider what damage type (thrust/slash/blunt) to bring, they should determine their defense.
    Moderately good archers should at least be able to hit enemies with some degree of reliability, and good archers should be able to circumvent small shields.

    Imo, archery should be easier, even if that means nerfing its damage. Anyone can pop into the game and swing widly as a vanguard and still be rewarded with kills. Only a rare few can simply hop into the game and consistently get kills as an archer.
    Hitting an enemy is satisfying, missing repeatedly due to extremely slow, unwieldy projectiles is not.



  • @Kriegson:

    shields will almost entirely thwart an archer, unless the archer is flanking.

    You can hit feet with arrows even if the guy got a tower shield.

    I grew accustomed to the bows quite fast in this game actually. The bows are actually deceptively accurate if you use the crosshairs. The spread doesn’t seem to matter at all, as you’re just as accurate while jumping as when you’re sitting crouched.

    All it takes is some practice. More archers should be more aggressive by the way. Archers should stay close to their team-mates and support them so they can support them back.

    Most archers I see seem to think that they got a rifle in their hands and sit perched far away somewhere doing little good.

    All arrows and bolts are getting a speed buff in the new patch by the way, that will make it even easier.



  • @Ulven:

    @Kriegson:

    shields will almost entirely thwart an archer, unless the archer is flanking.

    You can hit feet with arrows even if the guy got a tower shield.

    I grew accustomed to the bows quite fast in this game actually. The bows are actually deceptively accurate if you use the crosshairs. The spread doesn’t seem to matter at all, as you’re just as accurate while jumping as when you’re sitting crouched.

    All it takes is some practice. More archers should be more aggressive by the way. Archers should stay close to their team-mates and support them so they can support them back.

    Most archers I see seem to think that they got a rifle in their hands and sit perched far away somewhere doing little good.

    All arrows and bolts are getting a speed buff in the new patch by the way, that will make it even easier.

    +1

    At the moment I don’t believe Archer’s are truly effective at long range, you need to be up there just outside the main fray harassing enemies. At longer distances it becomes very easy to dodge arrows.



  • I don’t believe this issue is lag, as I have talked to people I was aiming at. But it seems that arrows don’t always connect even when they visually do. I have had arrows go flying through me with no damage done and vice versa.

    I have seen arrows go flying far right/left and still connect. It just seems like the hitbox is a little screwy and needs some tweaking. Along with arrow drop, and arrow speed.



  • This is quite irrelevant; the archer is not a dueling or 1v1 class.
    The archer is a supporting class, a force multiplier if you will.
    A good archer sits at the back and tips the balance of the melee furball in the favour of their team.
    They do this in several ways:

    • First Strike: By weakening enemies before they engage, so that trading of blows (common at high skill level melee) results in a friendly victory.
    • Suppression: A player’s movement options are restricted when they’re being targeted by an archer, as they have to keep their exposed areas to a minimum.
    • Distraction: This goes hand-in-hand with suppression; in a 1v1 the presence & threat of a supporting archer is often enough of a distraction to tip the balance of a fight, even if the archer doesn’t fire a single shot.
    • Focus-fire: Archer combat effectiveness scales linearly. if 1 archer does D damage; 10 archers do ~10D damage. Melee does not scale in such a simple fashion, and exhibits a sublinear relationship. 10 melee characters will do less than 10D damage, as past a certain threshold (~2-3 combatants) they’re effectiveness drops off. (they get in each others’ way)

    A good archer will have a brilliant idea and know how to adjust his compatibilty of fighting. there are lot of factors to be done.



  • @TehJumpingJawa:

    Imagine the hypothetical ‘perfect’ Archer; they never miss a shot, and always (where physically possible) get headshots.

    This doesn’t even exist in theory. In fact, the theoretical archer is likely much less powerful than in-practice archers. You literally could not program a computer, hack, or whatever to create your stated effect.

    If we are using proper game theory, both players are aware of how to win “the game”. In other words, when an archer, A, shoots at player B, B tries to evade by moving perpendicular to line between him and the archer (side to side).

    Because of the low speed of the arrow this turns the “game” of shooting enemies into a dice roll of the possible outcomes: strafe right, strafe left, no strafe. The archer guesses which will happen and decides to shoot right, shoot left, or shoot straight. However, this is absolute best case scenario for the archer and only occurs within a certain “sweet spot” distance between him and his target.

    The farther the enemy is, the more varying degrees of left and right movement will have an effect an impact on whether a certain shot will hit or not. As opponents get further away (and too close because the closer the enemy gets the more of your FoV he can strafe through) the probability of an archer hitting his target approaches zero.

    Therefore, one can safely consider all archery weapons to do 1/3 of their listed damage AT MOST for all optimal encounters and discussions of balance.



  • @morbidillusion:

    @TehJumpingJawa:

    Imagine the hypothetical ‘perfect’ Archer; they never miss a shot, and always (where physically possible) get headshots.

    This doesn’t even exist in theory. In fact, the theoretical archer is likely much less powerful than in-practice archers. You literally could not program a computer, hack, or whatever to create your stated effect.

    If we are using proper game theory, both players are aware of how to win “the game”. In other words, when an archer, A, shoots at player B, B tries to evade by moving perpendicular to line between him and the archer (side to side).

    Because of the low speed of the arrow this turns the “game” of shooting enemies into a dice roll of the possible outcomes: strafe right, strafe left, no strafe. The archer guesses which will happen and decides to shoot right, shoot left, or shoot straight. However, this is absolute best case scenario for the archer and only occurs within a certain “sweet spot” distance between him and his target.

    The farther the enemy is, the more varying degrees of left and right movement will have an effect an impact on whether a certain shot will hit or not. As opponents get further away (and too close because the closer the enemy gets the more of your FoV he can strafe through) the probability of an archer hitting his target approaches zero.

    Therefore, one can safely consider all archery weapons to do 1/3 of their listed damage AT MOST for all optimal encounters and discussions of balance.

    1stly I’m not pitching the ‘perfect archer’ directly against the ‘perfect melee’ opponent. Obviously doing this would result in a stalemate.
    The metric I’m using to compare their performance is perfect vs imperfect(regular human players).

    2nd; the strafing behaviour of humans is not completely random, and can be predicted with a certainty significantly greater than random chance would permit.

    3rd; not all targets are attempting to evade your shots. Indeed the ‘perfect archer’ would specifically target those who are not evading.



  • 1stly I’m not pitching the ‘perfect archer’ directly against the ‘perfect melee’ opponent. Obviously doing this would result in a stalemate.
    The metric I’m using to compare their performance is perfect vs imperfect(regular human players).

    I don’t really care about what you are pitching. This quoted sequence of sentences doesn’t really make any sense to me, anyway. Perfect melee vs. perfect archer would not result in a stalemate, in fact if you thought about it for a second you would realize that is the only outcome that is not possible. Perfect melee vs. perfect archer would be a question of whether or not the melee can close the distance of the sweet spot in less than 6-12 shots depending on if they are MAA/Vangaurd or Knight. I have a feeling that an archer cannot even kill a knight before they close this distance if they hit all 4 shots in a row - the chances of which is 1 in 81.

    The real purpose of my post was to clear the myth of the “perfect archer”. The idea is relevant to certain games like counter-strike where it can actually be seen. However, the mechanics of this game do not allow it, as I have demonstrated.

    2nd; the strafing behaviour of humans is not completely random, and can be predicted with a certainty significantly greater than random chance would permit.

    This is morbidly incorrect. After any given strafe the options of left, stay, and right remain the same. Every shot/strafe “game” is always the same the except for alien cases where a target is running flush alongside a wall, for example. You are suggesting that through some sort of divination you are able to predict the strafe outcome. You are completely and utterly full of it.

    I have already explained that both players are playing to maximize their chances of winning. If strafing in random directions yields the highest chance of miss - then the player will strafe in random directions to win. I doubt even the most accomplished psychologist or neuroscientist would make a similar claim as yours - which is essentially to understand the human decision making process in such an explicit way as to be able to actively and significantly increase your chances of detecting which direction someone will strafe in when they themselves are attempting to strafe randomly.

    3rd; not all targets are attempting to evade your shots. Indeed the ‘perfect archer’ would specifically target those who are not evading.

    While a seemingly interesting point, there are no longer two players playing the same game in this situation. This is like comparing balance between melee interactions based on situations where one class attacks the other from behind while they are preoccupied. Also similar to arguing that archers are powerful because they can kill AFKers inside spawns with a 100% survival rate. While true, it is unimportant because everyone is good against someone who isn’t fighting them.


Log in to reply