Beta Patch Feint Nerf Problems



  • First let’s establish that 1hers are considered by the competitive community as the superior weapon of choice over their slower 2h counterparts because of the speed that they attacked with it was impossible to react properly to feints besides guessing. The goal of the feint nerf should have been to make it so you could intelligently react to a feint from a 1her, not just guess.

    The .4 second global lock out after feinting has accomplished 2 things, making 1hers even more op in comparison to 2hers and lowered the skill ceiling of your game by a great deal. First off you have removed the ability to feint an attack to parry which nerfs 2hers. Second this has completely nerfed slower weapons because it’s impossible to feint with them now. This is because the speed is so slow now even if you perfectly feint them, they have time to get off a second parry. Third, this has lowered the skill ceiling of the game because you have lowered the number of possible actions you have to react to when someone swings at you down just 2 - parry like normal or parry the feint. Before it was an intelligent reaction to parry only when the swing would hit you. The windup was a queue to know that you should be expecting an attack, now you just learn 2 timers and you’re set.

    This doesn’t hurt 1hers as much because you would already wait half a second after a feint to attack, because if you didn’t your weapon was so fast that you would swing into their first parry.

    If the added .4 second feint cool down was meant to counter the combo feint glitching, that kind of change should only take effect on weapons that can actually combo. This change makes weapons like the spear, fork, and brandistock pretty useless. They already didn’t have the ability to combo attacks, and now they can’t even combine feints to gain an advantage over an opponent. Instead of adding a cooldown to feints, why can’t we just make is so if you combo your attacks, you can’t feint at all.



  • I agree 100% with this. The vanguard just isn’t as enjoyable anymore. I’m fine with the jumping, but the feinting needs to be as it was. Brandistock user ftw.



  • I haven’t actually played with the change yet, so I’m going to hold off on commenting on how it really effects the game, but my instinct is that this isn’t an optimal way to deal with any of the issues with feinting and does just further imbalance feints towards faster weapons.



  • With these recent changes, slower weapons don’t seem to be viable anymore.



  • All of the 2h feints are too easy to block in the current build besides halberd which is a stupid weapon itself.



  • I support this, but how about just lowering the pause for 2h weapons that can combo to something like .2 (bastard swords etc) so feinting isn’t useless on them, removing the pause on weapons that cannot combo, and leaving the 1h weapons with a .4 pause.

    I don’t know if it’s possible for that to happen, but I feel that would balance feints appropriately.

    Also bring back feint parries!



  • @Satoshi:

    With these recent changes, slower weapons don’t seem to be viable anymore.

    • I’d have to say that Slow weapons are still viable despite of that they cannot feint that fast anymore. With footwork and timming, you are still able to get in a hit on your opponent, even the feint works sometimes, but yeah feints isn’t everything in the game.

    Only idea I support here is to fix that there is this lame delay for canceling attacks to parry.

    Feints are still usable in my opinion.



  • Yeah, personally I tried out the Beta recently and I grabbed my two handed weapons like I usually do…
    It’s become increasingly difficult to be effective with them and a possible suggestion I could throw in there, is maybe utilizing the fact that you are holding a pole (Excluding greatswords) into parrying. Yes, the weapon is larger and heavier, but leverage is a very good tool in combat that can easily counter that of a one handed weapon.

    Remember in most games with polearms that the character usually has a pretty interesting move that allows them to rotate the polearm to block some incoming attacks. This isn’t a fantastical element, but rather a real, skillful move that people actually did. Maybe this could be put into effect to separate the larger weapons to combat the new nerfs in this patch?



  • So now that I’ve muled it over some more: my original thought was that a .2 second recovery with the ability to combo off a feint into an unfeintable attack immediately would be a perfectly legitimate way to fix feinting. The implementation of a .4 second recovery without the ability to combo off a feint is definitely taking it too far; that gives you enough time to parry twice even against relatively fast weapons, to say nothing of the fact that you can’t feint into a parry which is extremely extremely important for slow weapons.



  • @wildwulfy:

    @Satoshi:

    With these recent changes, slower weapons don’t seem to be viable anymore.

    • I’d have to say that Slow weapons are still viable despite of that they cannot feint that fast anymore. With footwork and timming, you are still able to get in a hit on your opponent, even the feint works sometimes, but yeah feints isn’t everything in the game.

    Only idea I support here is to fix that there is this lame delay for canceling attacks to parry.

    Feints are still usable in my opinion.

    You have to be fighting someone who is asleep to have a feint actually work. Even if they attempt to parry your feint, they now have enough time to get a second parry off in time to block the real attack. Only having to worry about your opponent feinting once per attack drastically lowers the skill level of the game. Either that person is going to attack you right away or they are going to use 1 feint, both are very easy to read and defend now. Not to mention classes with faster weapons can now rush in and take extreme advantage of a person trying to feint their attack.



  • Gameplay has gotten more static and slow since the introduction of the cooldown. A whole level of depth has vanished together with a whole set of tactis and playstyles because of the cooldown in its current condition. I feel like its more about trading hits and who gets hit first because we lack the tools to effectively turn the tide by putting presure on your opponent and force him into a more defensive state. This WAS accomplished by feinting.

    I’d suggest setting the cooldown to 0.2 s and allow parrying directly after a feint.



  • I play 90-95% of the time as a Vanguard with brandistock. I don’t see the nerf as a huge deal. I do use feint, but not that often. I try to bait the enemy to do a swing and hit him back when his weapon is only hitting air. I feel like Vanguard is also more powerful in group situations anyway where feint doesn’t come to play that much. 1 on 1 is still fine and I don’t feel like any class has a huge advantage over me. I might change my mind after I play some more and maybe have scenarios where I need to rely more on feint, but after quick testing it doesn’t feel that bad. The reason I play with Vanguard so much is that I enjoy that play-style the most and I’m also far better with that class than other ones. To be fair this might be due to the fact that I haven’t played other classes that much. The second most played class for me is probably archer and when I play with that class I feel completely useless most of the time compared to Vanguard.

    TL:DR I play Vanguard. The nerf doesn’t feel like it’s the end of the world so far.



  • @Knil:

    First let’s establish that 1hers are considered by the competitive community as the superior weapon of choice over their slower 2h counterparts because of the speed that they attacked with it was impossible to react properly to feints besides guessing. The goal of the feint nerf should have been to make it so you could intelligently react to a feint from a 1her, not just guess.

    The .4 second global lock out after feinting has accomplished 2 things, making 1hers even more op in comparison to 2hers and lowered the skill ceiling of your game by a great deal. First off you have removed the ability to feint an attack to parry which nerfs 2hers. Second this has completely nerfed slower weapons because it’s impossible to feint with them now. This is because the speed is so slow now even if you perfectly feint them, they have time to get off a second parry. Third, this has lowered the skill ceiling of the game because you have lowered the number of possible actions you have to react to when someone swings at you down just 2 - parry like normal or parry the feint. Before it was an intelligent reaction to parry only when the swing would hit you. The windup was a queue to know that you should be expecting an attack, now you just learn 2 timers and you’re set.

    This doesn’t hurt 1hers as much because you would already wait half a second after a feint to attack, because if you didn’t your weapon was so fast that you would swing into their first parry.

    If the added .4 second feint cool down was meant to counter the combo feint glitching, that kind of change should only take effect on weapons that can actually combo. This change makes weapons like the spear, fork, and brandistock pretty useless. They already didn’t have the ability to combo attacks, and now they can’t even combine feints to gain an advantage over an opponent. Instead of adding a cooldown to feints, why can’t we just make is so if you combo your attacks, you cant feint at all.

    @SlyGoat:

    So now that I’ve muled it over some more: my original thought was that a .2 second recovery with the ability to combo off a feint into an unfeintable attack immediately would be a perfectly legitimate way to fix feinting. The implementation of a .4 second recovery without the ability to combo off a feint is definitely taking it too far; that gives you enough time to parry twice even against relatively fast weapons, to say nothing of the fact that you can’t feint into a parry which is extremely extremely important for slow weapons.

    I think that’s about all that needs to be said and I can only repeat: 1h just got even better compared to 2h???really?…this is just so wrong



  • The more I play the more I only see 1her MMAs and shield knights with 1hers. At least before this feint nerf every class was well represented. Now with 2hers being useless in a duel vanguards are so bottom tier it’s sad - and they were already considered the worse class before this change.



  • The feint cooldown period disables the ability to block or parry too? That definitely needs to be changed. Being able to parry rapidly after a feint was never an issue. It was tricky enough to time that. Spamming feint aggressively was the issue.



  • If the added .4 second feint cool down was meant to counter the combo feint glitching, that kind of change should only take effect on weapons that can actually combo. This change makes weapons like the spear, fork, and brandistock pretty useless. They already didn’t have the ability to combo attacks, and now they can’t even combine feints to gain an advantage over an opponent. Instead of adding a cooldown to feints, why can’t we just make is so if you combo your attacks, you can’t feint at all.

    I’ve tried this in the beta and I totally agree. I was first glad to see this change, feint spam made it extremely hard to parry 1handers. I thought this would be a great fix…until I played it and realized how much MORE it hurt 2handers.

    It seems like the old system made 2handers competitive, while making 1handers broken. Now 1handers are competitive, and 2handers are pointless.



  • Well I appear to be the only person who disagrees, so here goes.

    First of all, 1H can use shields, and you can just hold up shields against a held feint for as long as the other guy wishes to waste his stamina. Nerfing feints help weapons setups that are forced to parry, aka 2 handers.

    Second, you can still feint into parry, it just takes 0.4 seconds. If you get hit in that time frame, then clearly you shouldn’t have started an attack. Now players have to be more careful with their aggression, because bad timing = get hit if there’s no instant parrying. This increases the skill cap.

    Finally, you made it sound like feinting is the only thing 2 handers have to get around parries. 2 handers have such large range that your opponent has to aim their block/parry further away from you to block it. Abuse that. Don’t feint your slash into another slash, feint into a stab while you aim left. Or feint a foot stab into a jumping overhead. Maybe they panicked and spam parried when they saw your feint, so a simple mouse drag away from them lands your hit.

    Really the only reason I ever feel pressured to put down my 2H sword of war is because I need a shield to survive archers, or because it’s damage type isn’t as effective against the incoming knight as that of my flanged mace.

    Yes vanguards are underpowered. That’s not because their 2 handers suck (if that was the case they could use their secondary), it’s because they are shieldless archer fodder. Smoke pot, charging attacks, and maybe even their resistances all need buffs.



  • Knil is feeling the effects because feint spam was so effective with VG polearms that most people didnt have the reactions to block it. For example the feint anim for halberd was the fastest in the game.



  • @RushSecond:

    Well I appear to be the only person who disagrees, so here goes.

    First of all, 1H can use shields, and you can just hold up shields against a held feint for as long as the other guy wishes to waste his stamina. Nerfing feints help weapons setups that are forced to parry, aka 2 handers.

    So instead of nerfing shields that make skilled players invulnerable in 1v1 we make all skilled players invulnerable?…that’s going to be a fun game

    @RushSecond:

    Second, you can still feint into parry, it just takes 0.4 seconds. If you get hit in that time frame, then clearly you shouldn’t have started an attack. Now players have to be more careful with their aggression, because bad timing = get hit if there’s no instant parrying. This increases the skill cap.

    No it decreases the skill cap. If the game doesn’t let you do certain actions how does this increase the skill cap? This simply turns reaction+anticipation into…anticipation. This is bad.

    @RushSecond:

    Finally, you made it sound like feinting is the only thing 2 handers have to get around parries. 2 handers have such large range that your opponent has to aim their block/parry further away from you to block it. Abuse that. Don’t feint your slash into another slash, feint into a stab while you aim left. Or feint a foot stab into a jumping overhead. Maybe they panicked and spam parried when they saw your feint, so a simple mouse drag away from them lands your hit.

    Feinting IS the only thing to reliably get around parries. Everything else besides footwork is just a nice trick which works every 10 times. Like delaying blow on slow weapons. Works hardly on skilled players. Or letting your enemy run into your combo attack after missing purposefully. You do this once, they get burned and this will not work again. Footstabs/overheadjumps are also quite easy to parry. This game will turn into a parryfest quickly. Just look at knight towershield vs knight towershield right now. All they do compared to shieldless classes is……they ignore feint. Skilled knight towershield mirror matches take AGES and are NOT fun. They are exactly the opposite of fun imho.

    @RushSecond:

    Really the only reason I ever feel pressured to put down my 2H sword of war is because I need a shield to survive archers, or because it’s damage type isn’t as effective against the incoming knight as that of my flanged mace.

    Your 2h sword of war 3 shots knights, as does the flanged mace. All you do is trade reach for speed.

    @RushSecond:

    Yes vanguards are underpowered. That’s not because their 2 handers suck (if that was the case they could use their secondary), it’s because they are shieldless archer fodder. Smoke pot, charging attacks, and maybe even their resistances all need buffs.

    There are many more reasons why vanguards are the worst class right now:
    -most weapons kill vgs in as many hits as maa, while maa can avoid hits muuuuuch easier and has a shield
    -knights can take more hits than you, while they are only very slightly slower. Knights have shields. With most weapons doing a 2 hit kill on vgs and 3 or 4 on knights, knights do have 50 to 100% more effective hp!
    -and being archer/throwable fodder of course.
    -maa dodge>>>>>knight’s stamina efficient parries>>vg charge attack(doesn’t do anything besides killing people from behind….that’s the least thing you could possibly need help to…)



  • Falc, thanks for saving me the effort of replying to that guy.

    I’ve been playing it more and debating best how to fix the feint problem. I feel that a global .1 second delay that you can parry during would fix all the problems we experience now because of animation glitching, while still retaining the fast skill based combat.

    Also is it just me more is the idle hit stun not in the game? I haven’t done any serious testing but I don’t seem notice it in effect.


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