Balance Patch Suggestions



  • I’m looking for some help to put together what would be an ideal balance patch to present to the developers. This is not a generalised topic for discussion (please put all your thoughts in the pre-existing balance discussion thread instead: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3135). This topic is to nail down the specific numbers in the game and look at what does and doesn’t need fixing and how exactly, from the millisecond or single point of damage, we can at least fix a large chunk of what does in fact need fixing in a single update.

    You will need to become familiar with this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1 and every single point you make has to be backed up with hard facts and numbers to avoid uninformed opinions. To be clear, any post which contains ‘I think this’ and not ‘I think this because… X, Y and Z’ will not be taken into consideration as without the numbers, every single person on this forum could theoretically have their own opinion on how everything should work and then we’d get nowhere (and I know there’s always going to be people who disagree, we just have to do our bests to help each other understand the different points of view, so let’s not argue on anything). This damage system was largely was my creation, so I have a part to play in its direction, and this is my way of doing just that.

    So, let’s begin shall we?

    There are three tabs on that spreadsheet above. The first tab is the current game balance (after-patch). The second tab contains all my personal recommendations below, so you can do a direct comparison in terms of damage, hits to kill and any timings that are changed. The final tab should allow any person to edit the base damage value (between the Attack and Types columns); this will automatically update every red number which you can use for reference if either don’t know the math or just want a faster method of getting every piece of information so you can provide your own numbers. Do not edit the numbers in red!

    v1 (now depreciated)

    ! Classes
    !
    ! - Increased Man-at-Arms Blunt Resistance from 15% to 25%
    !
    ! Without this, blunt weapons cover every situation in the game too well, unlike swords, which do reduced damage to the heavier classes.
    !
    ! - Increased Man-at-Arms Pierce Resistance from 15% to 20%
    !
    ! Part of the ranged changes listed later and has virtually no other effect with melee.
    !
    ! Melee Weapons
    !
    ! - Decreased Warhammer slash damage from 75 to 70
    ! - Decreased Warhammer overhead damage from 85 to 75
    !
    ! The Warhammer can no longer 2 hit Knights. Instead a head hit and torso hit will do 99 damage, allowing you to kick the player to finish them off. Do we need to cut further?
    !
    ! - Increased Hunting Knife slash damage from 40 to 50
    ! - Increased Hunting Knife overhead damage from 40 to 55
    ! - Set Hunting Knife overhead animation to the standard 1h sharp overhead animation
    !
    ! Due to the new animation setup, and the Hunting Knife’s damage type and damage values, this weapon is extremely lackluster currently. The numbers might seem a big increase, but you have to remember the Cut damage type is most resisted among all classes. The revert to the old animation for the overhead will preserve the cutting power, rather than make the Hunting Knife a slash only weapon. The Hunting Knife remains lackluster with stabs, as intended.
    !
    ! - Change Broad Dagger overhead damage type from Cut to Pierce
    ! - Increased Broad Dagger slash damage from 35 to 45
    ! - Increased Broad Dagger overhead damage from 35 to 40
    ! - Increased Broad Dagger stab damage from 40 to 45
    !
    ! As above, fix the damage types and make the Broad Dagger an all-around Dagger, capable with both swings and stabs.
    !
    ! - Change Thrusting Dagger overhead damage from Cut to Pierce
    ! - Increased Thrusting Dagger overhead damage from 30 to 50
    !
    ! The Thrusting Dagger remains lackluster on swings, as intended. These changes are to match the new animations and correct the wrong damage type. All of the above Dagger changes are to bring the daggers more in line with the Light Auxillary too.
    !
    ! - Increased Maul overhead damage from 125 to 135
    ! - Increased Grand Mace overhead damage from 100 to 110
    !
    ! These changes have no effect on their current HTK (hits to kill). They simply counteract the increase in blunt resistance for the MAA so these weapons still do what they should do. Please do a comparison to confirm. All 1h blunt weapons will do reduced damage to Man-at-Arms, but remain useful vs the armoured classes.
    !
    ! - Increased Saber slash damage from 40 to 45
    ! - Increased Saber overhead damage from 45 to 50
    !
    ! With the Saber’s slow speed and low damage, these changes are designed to bring the Saber more inline with the other Light Auxillary weapons, especially considering Cut is the most resisted damage type, the base numbers mean little on their own.
    !
    ! - Decreased Norse Sword overhead damage from 65 to 60
    ! - Increased Norse sword stab damage from 55 to 60
    !
    ! A slight alteration to the patch notes, this allows for 1 head stab and 1 body stab to kill a Vanguard, as opposed to 2 head stabs. The Vanguard is naturally susceptible to Pierce attacks, it should not have to require 2 head hits. The stab windup decrease from the patch notes does not need to be reverted.
    !
    ! - Decreased Falchion slash damage from 70 to 65
    ! - Decreased Falchion overhead damage from 75 to 70
    !
    ! The Falchion values should have not been that high from the start, and these changes may not even be enough. They use a different damage type which is less resisted among all classes. The base numbers alone mean little - they match the Broadsword on the overhead but the Falchion still does more damage with its swings.
    !
    ! - Increased War Axe overhead damage from 78 to 80
    ! - Increased War Axe stab damage from 30 to 50
    !
    ! Corrected the War Axe stab as it’s supposed to be all-rounder Axe. The War Axe is the only Axe with a spike, but the old damage values did not reflect this.
    !
    ! - Decreased Pitchfork slash windup from 0.5 to 0.45
    ! - Decreased Pitchfork overhead windup from 0.6 to 0.5
    ! - Decreased Pitchfork stab windup from 0.5 to 0.45
    !
    ! An attempt at making the pitchfork a much more viable weapon (fastest 2 hander).
    !
    ! - Increased Halberd slash windup from 0.6 to 0.65
    ! - Increased Halberd overhead windup from 0.6 to 0.65
    ! - Increased Halberd overhead windup from 0.6 to 0.65
    ! - Decreased Billhook slash windup from 0.65 to 0.6
    ! - Decreased Billhook overhead windup from 0.65 to 0.6
    ! - Decreased Billhook stab windup from 0.65 to 0.6
    ! - Increased Halberd slash combo windup from 0.75 to 0.8
    ! - Increased Halberd overhead combo windup from 0.75 to 0.8
    ! - Increased Halberd overhead combo windup from 0.75 to 0.8
    ! - Decreased Billhook slash combo windup from 0.8 to 0.75
    ! - Decreased Billhook overhead combo windup from 0.8 to 0.75
    ! - Decreased Billhook stab combo windup from 0.8 to 0.75
    !
    ! Swapped Halberd and Billhook times. The Halberd was faster, longer and more damaging than the Billhook. Now the Halberd is slower than the Billhook, but still longer and more damaging.
    !
    ! - Decreased Sword of War overhead damage from 75 to 70
    ! - Decreased Longsword 1H slash damage from 60 to 55
    ! - Decreased Longsword 1H overhead damage from 75 to 65
    ! - Decreased Messer 1H slash damage from 70 to 60
    ! - Decreased Messer 1H overhead damage 75 to 65
    ! - Decreased Messer 1H stab damage from 50 to 45
    ! - Decreased Sword of War 1H slash damage from 55 to 50
    ! - Decreased Sword of War 1H overhead damage from 60 to 55
    ! - Decreased Sword of War 1H stab damage from 70 to 60
    !
    ! Various changes with the Knight bastard swords. The Sword of War is a stabbing weapon primarily, and the overhead damage was ever so slightly stepping on the Longswords toes. Several nerfs to the 1H bastard swords as they are all as fast as the standard 1H swords, far more damaging and are all longer. The bastard sword damage values are designed here to be more on par with the standard 1H swords. We may have to add some timing changes here too to slow them down some.
    !
    ! - Decreased Double Axe slash windup from 0.65 to 0.55
    ! - Decreased Double Axe overhead windup from 0.65 to 0.55
    ! - Decreased Double Axe stab windup from 0.65 to 0.5
    !
    ! Speeding up the very short ranged Double Axe.
    !
    ! Melee Weapon Bug Fixes
    !
    ! - Changed War Axe stab damage type from SwingBlunt to Pierce
    ! - Changed Hatchet stab damage type from SwingBlunt to Blunt
    ! - Changed Dane Axe stab damage type from SwingBlunt to Blunt
    ! - Changed Messer slash damage type from Swing to SwingBlunt
    ! - Changed Spear stab damage type from Blunt to Pierce
    ! - Changed Pitchfork stab damage type from Blunt to Pierce
    ! - Changed Brandistock stab damage type from Blunt to Pierce
    ! - Changed Fists kick damage type from Fists to Kick
    ! - Fixed Longsword 1H stabtoslash02 being 0.1s faster than it should be
    ! - Fixed Claymore slash01tostab being 0.05s slower than it should be.
    ! - Fixed Zweihander slash01toslash02 being 0.025s slower than it should be.
    ! - Fixed Zweihander stabtoslash02 being 0.2s slower than it should be.
    !
    ! All bug fixes, not so much balance changes.
    !
    ! Hit Location
    !
    ! - Reinstate Arms modifier for projectile based weapons at 85% damage
    !
    ! The arms modifier was present pre-release but removed for an unknown reason and basically meant there was a smaller hitbox for standard damage numbers (torso only, as opposed to torso + arms). The arms modifier required you to be more accurate with your shots and you face a small penalty for hitting them.
    !
    ! - Decreased Melee based head modifier from 1.25 to 1.2
    !
    ! This is an odd one to call, but there are 2 reasons, so stick with me. (1) On the whole, it has very little effect, but it does fix a few minor issues where some weapons just ended up dealing so much more damage through an extra 25% through the head, it removed an entire additional attack on weapons where where you wouldn’t expect to kill in so few hits. The other issue is that the head hitbox is rather big (covering the neck and part of the torso), and is usually where you will be doing most of your damage. An extra 25% damage across the whole board for the majority of hits is a massive bonus. This value used to be an additional 10% damage when hitting the head but was overbuffed (at least in my view!). (2) It was needed to stop the Maul 1 hitting the Knight. The alternative solution here is to make the MAA less resistant to the Maul, but I really believe the MAA should be taking less damage from blunt weapons on the whole, but still allow the one hit kill from the Maul when hitting anything above the legs; it’s just difficult to make this one work perfectly, the drawbacks of modifiers unfortunately.
    !
    ! Ranged Weapons
    !
    ! - Increased the speed modifier from 75% to 85% for the Shortbow when drawing/drawn
    ! - Increased the speed modifier from 60% to 65% for the Longbow when drawing/drawn
    !
    ! Shortbow and Longbow users are slightly more mobile with the bows, Warbow is untouched.
    !
    ! - Decreased Shortbow Bodkin Arrow base damage from 55 to 50
    ! - Increased Longbow Broadhead Arrow base damage from 75 to 80
    ! - Decreased Warbow Bodkin Arrow base damage from 105 to 100
    ! - Increased Light Crossbow bolt base damage from 98 to 105
    ! - Increased Crossbow bolt base damage from 113 to 135
    ! - Increased Heavy Crossbow bolt base damage from 120 to 185
    ! - Increased Heavy Crossbow reload time from 4.5s to 5.0s
    ! - Increased Short Spear ammo count from 6 to 9
    ! - Increased Javelin ammo count from 5 to 7
    ! - Increased Heavy Javelin ammo count from 4 to 5
    ! - Set Short Spear sprint throw damage to 130
    ! - Increased Javelin throw damage from 115 to 120
    ! - Set Javelin sprint throw damage to 150
    ! - Increased Heavy Javelin sprint throw damage from 120 to 135
    ! - Set Heavy Javelin sprint throw damage to 165
    !
    ! The best way to explain all of this is to just tell you to do a direct comparison between sheet #1 and sheet #2 and looks at the HTK for Xbow/Jav improvements. Sprint throw is coming… eventually. The Arms modifier means you can at times require an additional projectile to be dropped, and the Knight can now be killed through headshots from a couple of weapons. Also an attempt at fixing the discrepancy between Bodkin and Broadhead Arrows (please view all HTK) but not touched ammo counts (necessary?). Crossbows buffed to be how they should have been from the start and some damage and ammo changes to the Javelins to actually make them viable weapons.
    !
    ! - No numbers to compare, but hugely increase the damage dealt by fire that is on the ground
    !
    ! Fire is simply not effective enough on the ground. It does very little damage, and even not regenerating whilst standing in the fire is still not enough (well, it more of a bug fix anyway). I don’t have the numbers because it’s hard coded, but it’s very clear fire on the ground is simply not threatening enough.

    v2 (still being iterated)

    ! Classes
    !
    ! - Increased Man-at-Arms Blunt Resistance from 15% to 24%
    ! - Somehow buff Vanguard sprint attacks
    !
    ! Melee Weapons
    !
    ! - Decreased Warhammer slash damage from 75 to 70
    ! - Decreased Warhammer overhead damage from 85 to 75
    ! - Increased Hunting Knife slash damage from 40 to 50
    ! - Increased Hunting Knife overhead damage from 40 to 55
    ! - Set Hunting Knife overhead animation to the standard 1h sharp overhead animation
    ! - Change Broad Dagger overhead damage type from Cut to Pierce
    ! - Increased Broad Dagger slash damage from 35 to 45
    ! - Increased Broad Dagger overhead damage from 35 to 40
    ! - Increased Broad Dagger stab damage from 40 to 45
    ! - Change Thrusting Dagger overhead damage from Cut to Pierce
    ! - Increased Thrusting Dagger overhead damage from 30 to 45
    ! - Increased Maul overhead damage from 125 to 131
    ! - Increased Grand Mace overhead damage from 100 to 106
    ! - Increased Saber slash damage from 40 to 45
    ! - Increased Saber overhead damage from 45 to 50
    ! - Decreased Falchion slash damage from 70 to 65
    ! - Decreased Falchion overhead damage from 75 to 70
    ! - Increased War Axe overhead damage from 78 to 80
    ! - Increased War Axe stab damage from 30 to 50
    ! - Decreased Pitchfork slash windup from 0.5 to 0.45
    ! - Decreased Pitchfork overhead windup from 0.6 to 0.5
    ! - Decreased Pitchfork stab windup from 0.5 to 0.45
    ! - Increased Halberd slash windup from 0.6 to 0.65
    ! - Increased Halberd overhead windup from 0.6 to 0.65
    ! - Increased Halberd overhead windup from 0.6 to 0.65
    ! - Decreased Billhook slash windup from 0.65 to 0.6
    ! - Decreased Billhook overhead windup from 0.65 to 0.6
    ! - Decreased Billhook stab windup from 0.65 to 0.6
    ! - Increased Halberd slash combo windup from 0.75 to 0.8
    ! - Increased Halberd overhead combo windup from 0.75 to 0.8
    ! - Increased Halberd overhead combo windup from 0.75 to 0.8
    ! - Decreased Billhook slash combo windup from 0.8 to 0.75
    ! - Decreased Billhook overhead combo windup from 0.8 to 0.75
    ! - Decreased Billhook stab combo windup from 0.8 to 0.75
    !
    ! Melee Weapon Bug Fixes
    !
    ! - Changed War Axe stab damage type from SwingBlunt to Pierce
    ! - Changed Hatchet stab damage type from SwingBlunt to Blunt
    ! - Changed Dane Axe stab damage type from SwingBlunt to Blunt
    ! - Changed Messer slash damage type from Swing to SwingBlunt
    ! - Changed Spear stab damage type from Blunt to Pierce
    ! - Changed Pitchfork stab damage type from Blunt to Pierce
    ! - Changed Brandistock stab damage type from Blunt to Pierce
    ! - Changed Fists kick damage type from Fists to Kick
    ! - Fixed Longsword 1H stabtoslash02 being 0.1s faster than it should be
    ! - Fixed Claymore slash01tostab being 0.05s slower than it should be.
    ! - Fixed Zweihander slash01toslash02 being 0.025s slower than it should be.
    ! - Fixed Zweihander stabtoslash02 being 0.2s slower than it should be.
    !
    ! Hit Location
    !
    ! - Reinstate Arms modifier for projectile based weapons at 85% damage
    !
    ! Ranged Weapons
    !
    ! - Increase number of carried and maximum carriable smoke pots to 3.
    ! - Lower firepot burn damage from 50 to 45.
    ! - Increased the speed modifier from 75% to 85% for the Shortbow when drawing/drawn
    ! - Increased the speed modifier from 60% to 65% for the Longbow when drawing/drawn
    ! - Decreased Shortbow Bodkin Arrow base damage from 55 to 50
    ! - Increased Longbow Broadhead Arrow base damage from 75 to 80
    ! - Decreased Warbow Bodkin Arrow base damage from 105 to 100
    ! - Increased Light Crossbow bolt base damage from 98 to 105
    ! - Increased Crossbow bolt base damage from 113 to 125
    ! - Increased Heavy Crossbow bolt base damage from 120 to 145
    ! - Increased Short Spear ammo count from 6 to 9
    ! - Increased Javelin ammo count from 5 to 7
    ! - Increased Heavy Javelin ammo count from 4 to 5
    ! - Set Short Spear sprint throw damage to 130
    ! - Increased Javelin throw damage from 115 to 120
    ! - Set Javelin sprint throw damage to 150
    ! - Increased Heavy Javelin sprint throw damage from 120 to 135
    ! - Set Heavy Javelin sprint throw damage to 165
    ! - No numbers to compare, but hugely increase the damage dealt by fire that is on the ground

    I don’t believe I’ve covered everything yet by any means, which is why I need others help to help me suggest fixes or alterations or tell me where you believe I’m missing the plot completely. I haven’t looked at recovery times at all yet for example, so there are still probably some cases where recoveries make no sense on weapons, among some other timings. If you don’t agree with anything I’ve recommended, state why with numbers.

    There is also nothing concerning stamina and shields here, as everything is hard-coded so we can’t get any specifics.



  • I agree with this thread 110%

    [future contributions will be added here]



  • Most seem reasonable, my one doubt is the damage increase on some of the javs. With such an increase I would be more happy with the reduced ammo number for them, otherwise that might be a bit too powerful.

    How much actual damage would that heavy crossbow be doing, is that enough to 1 shot a vanguard with a hit to the torso?



  • @BGrey:

    How much actual damage would that heavy crossbow be doing, is that enough to 1 shot a vanguard with a hit to the torso?

    I can haz? :O’

    I’d be happy if the betapatchlist gets updated with all or, at least, most of your suggestions. They sound reasonable and the sheets make it hard to proof you wrong.

    [ROOM FOR OWN SUGGESTIONS]

    Points I backup-checked

    -increase heavy xbow dmg to be way higher than xbow: you literally trade one whole second reload time for 7 additional damage atm, if you choose heavy xbow over xbow. On the other hand the patch will throw in another 1000 arrowspeed for the heavy xbow, and the only thing I can tell about it is that 500 is hardly noticeable at all. ( <- In case I’m right that heavy xbow has 500 arrowspeed more than warbow -prepatch). It’s hard to messure velocity against damage and reloadspeed even before I had a chance to “feel” the difference at least. Still, a 7 damage difference is not acceptable, it should def be more.

    Mod Edit: You are looking at the wrong sheet - that is the current game. This is the suggested: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … Znc#gid=14 ;)

    -increased movementspeed with drawn longbow / shortbow: shortbow’s new movementspeed would be 170, knight’s 180 - we are getting close. Probably too close and again velocity will already seperate these 2 from warbow in a unique aspect ( warbow’s arrows speed apparently stays the same). Along with the damage changes this would be a nerf in 2 aspects for the warbow, and a buff in 2 (shortb) / 3 (longbow). It is too much.



  • Sorry, yes, this particular sheet here shows all of those suggested numbers plugged in: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … Znc#gid=14



  • It was not quite clear whether you knew that increasing maul overhead to 135 would let it 1headshot knights without your headhit multiplier change to 1.2. I think your idea that heavy crossbow headshots should 1 shot knights is good and bad at the same time:
    good: most likely the only way to make this weapon viable over other crossbows
    bad: I fear….shotgunning

    other points: given the weak position of the vanguard, I would not nerf any of his weapons. You’re right that the billhook needs buffs, but I think no 2h should be made slower. Now that feints have 0.4 sec lockout before you can swing again, most 2h will easily be parried even after a successful feint (do you have any numbers on how long a parry/parry recovery exactly takes? This would be immensely helpful so we can find the right values for timings. Reach values would also be needed…I have got a feeling how long each individual weapon is, but hard numbers are always better).

    So I propose for billhook (leave halberd as is):

    -increase overhead damage from 75 to 78 (lets you 2 shot vanguards without headhit, does no other hit to kill(henceforth abbreviated as htk) changes)
    -bill hook has now the same htk as halberd, but it cannot 2 shot knights without charge attack
    -billhook already has shorter recovery times!(compared to halberd)
    -reduce windup (stab/slash/overhead) from 0.65 to 0.55 -> halberd has now more reach, very slightly more damage but is slower, billhook already has shorter release times.

    Why no changes to vanguard swords? I think these could need some love. They cannot 2 shot knights unlike many other 2h weapons (and I don’t think they should), the zwei can, but only with 2 overhead headhits and would no longer be able to after your suggested headhit multiplier change to 1.2. So zwei’s damage would atleast have to be buffed to compensate.
    But I think (vg)swords should have an edge over polearms(who are the most powerful) and spears (who have the most reach) and I thinnk you already guessed it… there is only speed left ;)

    So I propose for vg 2h swords:

    -multiply all damage values with 1.0417 (does not change any htk at all(you could 2 shot other vgs with greatsword slashes now, but I don’t think this matters)) this is just to compensate for your suggested headhit multiplier changes.
    -reduce all wind up and combo times of 2h vg swords by 0.05
    -claymore:windup/combo: —> new windup /new combo
    0.5 / 0.65 --> 0.45 / 0.6
    0.55 / 0.675 --> 0.5 / 0.625
    0.65 / INCONS --> 0.6 / INCONS-0.05 (why is it inconsistent anyway?Shouldn’t they fix that?)

    -greatsword:windup /combo: —> new windup /new combo
    0.5 /0.65 --> 0.45 / 0.6
    0.5 /0.65 --> 0.45 / 0.6
    0.7 /0.6 --> 0.65 / 0.55

    -zweihänder:windup/ combo: —> new windup/ new combo
    0.65 /0.8 --> 0.6 / 0.75
    0.6 /INCONS --> 0.55 / INCONS-0.05
    0.75 / INCONS --> 0.7 / INCONS-0.05

    As I said, I think no 2h weapon needs any nerfs. So knight 2h swords do not need any nerfs in my book.

    I also think the maul needs to be faster. I know it can one shot 3 of 4 classes…but it is that slow that you won’t hit a decent player with it. Punishment for missing with such a slow weapon is too big. Right now missing is a free hit for anyone with a brain and a weapon.

    -Maul:
    -recovery time (slash/overhead) changed from 1.2 to 0.8 (this is still some serious punishment, but more manageable. Maybe even more is needed, but then you would have to change other weapons (like grand mace), too).
    -too slow to hit anybody not asleep so:
    windup/combo old---->windup/combo new
    0.7 /0.85 --> 0.65 /0.75
    0.7 /0.85 --> 0.62 /0.75
    0.6 /0.85 --> 0.55 / 0.75

    -grand mace now needs to be sped up too to balance
    windup/combo old---->windup/combo new
    0.6 /0.75 --> 0.55 / 0.68
    0.6 /0.75 --> 0.55 / 0.68
    0.6 /0.75 --> 0.55 / 0.68
    -this weapon needed some love anyway, as it was overshadowed by warhammer and maul (and this weapon is already subpar…)
    -increase reach by 10%
    -include your change of damage overhead increase from 100 to 110

    -double axe
    your changes:

    • Decreased Double Axe slash windup from 0.65 to 0.55
    • Decreased Double Axe overhead windup from 0.65 to 0.55
    • Decreased Double Axe stab windup from 0.65 to 0.5

    I would add a damage increase to overhead 95->100 and slash 85->90 so you can 2 shot a knight with overhead bodies.

    One last note: While it was clear what you meant by the numbers oyu posted, you sometimes used decrease or increase for the same change, let me give you an example:

    • Decreased Halberd slash windup from 0.6 to 0.65
    • Decreased Double Axe slash windup from 0.65 to 0.55

    One time you decrease the windup and it gets shorter (0.65 to 0.55) (this would be the right use of decrease imho), the other time you use decrease the wind up time gets longer(0.6 to 0.65). Is this a typo? I don’t think so but it is confusing :)

    ps:as it is already late, if anyone finds any mistakes they may keep them :D …any yes I know my tables look like **** :D



  • I back this up 200%!



  • This sounds great. You hear that Torn Banner? :P



  • these changes make enormously more sense then the ones in the patch now.



  • I’ll go through your post in greater detail in a short while Falc, as you bring up some great points, but just to touch on a couple of things quickly that stand out to me:

    (why is it inconsistent anyway?Shouldn’t they fix that?)

    Yeah, I don’t believe it’s intentional at all because the combo for X attack is supposed to be standardised for balance reasons (otherwise you end up with cases such as comboing X from Y is pointless, you may as well combo X from Z instead - that’s the case with the Zweihander right now, you can combo an overhead much faster if you do it from slash as opposed to stab). The other reason is that one or two of the inconsistent values are using values from other attacks, so likely just human error.

    -Maul:
    -recovery time (slash/overhead) changed from 1.2 to 0.8

    I agree with the recoveries on the Maul, and I’ll take a second look shortly and make some further suggestions and take into account yours too.

    increase reach by 10%

    Reach isn’t really easily controllable, because it’s based on the physical model and would require an update to the model itself so the tracer point can be extended. I agree the Grand Mace needs a slight touch up though.

    Is this a typo?

    It was a typo, lol, damned increases and decreases.



  • I’ll go through your balance changes in a second but a suggestion for the spread sheet is to make any hit that does 50-99 as a yellow number and 34-49 as green number. This helps to get a better visual reference at a glance for weapon. Love your work on the spreadsheet.



  • There you go. I’ll try and make it look a bit less sickly later on.



  • Martin there’s quite a few areas I disagree with.

    First of all, this list of changes is just too big. If you really think that the state of the game is so poor that it requires 3 pages worth of changes, I’d really like to see your reasoning for it. I’d much prefer to see just a few changes at a time and let the players figure out what weapons are best for what situations.

    Warhammer currently has the highest release + recovery frames of all 1H (including knight primary swords in 1H). It’s ability to 2-shot knights really doesn’t seem unwarranted or overpowered when you consider what happens when you miss and suddenly need to block (WITHOUT combo feinting).

    I like the dagger “fixes” (changing damage types of overhead) but the damage increases seem unwarranted since they’re so fast. Broad dagger 3-shotting MAA with torso slashes seems excessive.

    Why buff saber if it’s getting an indirect buff with your MAA resist change? “Cut is the most resisted damage type” would no longer be true, blunt would actually be the most resisted damage type.

    Currently a slash+stab combo from a broadsword kills both archers and MAA. The same combo from falchion kills neither. Broadsword is also faster. Falchion nerf seems hasty.

    Arms mod for projectiles is an awful idea. Shields already are a huge counter to projectiles; with this change you force archers to hit a shielded guy in the arms and making a bad situation even worse. Also, you might not have considered what happens if the guy you are aiming for is faced 90 degrees away from you; his arms would block his torso, making seemingly correct shots do 15% less damage for no reason.

    If your changes cause bad situation, the solution is to do less changes, not more. In this case, your MAA blunt resist change from .85 to .75 meant warhammer damage needed an increase to still one shot MAA, and then you needed to decrease head hit damage (an important global multiplier!!) to prevent it from one shotting knights also. Instead why not just have MAA blunt resist to .80 so it doesn’t cause this cascade of problems? On the topic of head hit damage, it doesn’t need any decrease, period. Ducking moves haven’t been fully explored yet and may become a valid tactic if everyone starts aiming for the head like you fear.

    Sprint throws. They should increase projectile speed, NOT increase damage. You need to rethink the rest of your projectile changes with two things in mind:

    1. Arms mod change is bad as said before
    2. Getting one-shot by ranged weapons is already one the most annoying things in the game. Damage increases to them needs to be a last resort.


  • Warhammer currently has the highest release + recovery frames of all 1H (including knight primary swords in 1H). It’s ability to 2-shot knights really doesn’t seem unwarranted or overpowered when you consider what happens when you miss and suddenly need to block (WITHOUT combo feinting).

    I think a lot of people might disagree with you here, myself included, as you can’t really balance a game around people missing. The suggested changes simply add an additional move into the fray - a kick finisher, or if you don’t have the stamina, one additional attack, even the very quick stab will do it, so there’s a reason to the use the Warhammer stab now too!

    Broad dagger 3-shotting MAA with torso slashes seems excessive.

    Why buff saber if it’s getting an indirect buff with your MAA resist change? “Cut is the most resisted damage type” would no longer be true, blunt would actually be the most resisted damage type.

    How so? I am curious as to why you would pick a Broad Dagger over the Shortsword if it retained its old values, especially considering its a much shorter weapon and is not that much faster. The old Broad Dagger took 4 body slashes to an MAA, 5 to a Vanguard and 7 to a Knight. With regards to the Saber point too, the old values offered no reason to use the Saber slash attacks over the Shortsword because the Shortswords stab deals naturally higher damage because of the cut resistance (plus the slashing damage was exactly the same as the Shortsword too, making the Saber an extremely poor choice because of its speed); the blunt resistance is a bit irrelevent in this case, as I was only comparing the Saber to the Shortsword.

    Currently a slash+stab combo from a broadsword kills both archers and MAA. The same combo from falchion kills neither. Broadsword is also faster. Falchion nerf seems hasty.

    This is intentional. The Falchion is strictly a cutting weapon, unlike the more all-rounded Broadsword. You will find a Falchion slash + overhead, or even slash + slash constantly outperform the Broadsword.

    @ Maul/HS issue

    Knil has found an alternate way around it, so that’s been reflected now. I agree the whole modifier system can be messy, especially as this case highlighted, because you can make what you think is 1 minor change, only to drastically effect a lot of other things. The HS melee mod is back to what it was.



  • Ignoring the current feint problem which basically makes all 2hers useless - read my thread:
    viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5714

    I like most of these changes but here is what I don’t like.
    -Head damage down to 20% is not needed imo if you are worried about the maul make the MMA at .76 blunt protection - this change has too many far reaching consequences.

    -The thrusting dagger I feel you over buffed it’s just a faster short sword now.
    Overhead thrust and regular thrust brought down to 45

    -MMA at .8 pierce is stepping on vanguard toes too much and it’s stop you from letting certain weapons 2 shot the MMA but 3 shot the vanguard. Vanguard is already considered the worse class in the game let’s not make them comparably worse.

    -Crossbows I feel you also overbuffed by making precise aiming less important and too strong in comparison to the bows. I brought the crossbow down to 125 this lets you torso 1 shot 3 out of 4 classes. The heavy crossbow at 150 gives you the headshot 1 shot on the knight and also gives you more guaranteed one shots on the other classes.

    -bunch of other misc. stuff like buffing the second stab with spears because it’s useless, making zweihander sprint attack one shot archers, slight buff to your sword of war nerf, etc.

    If you want to see all my changes you can see my spreadsheet here (thx to martin for giving me a tab):
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … Znc#gid=13



  • The HS and MAA pierce aren’t part of it anymore, it screwed with too many things.

    Well done on noticing the Thrust dagger stab damage, because I didn’t actually include that in the notes, I was just experimenting with it and forgot to revert it :P The overhead was dropped though, as you’re right, the speed is considerably higher.

    Crossbows nerfed as suggested, but I dropped the Heavy a tad more so a Vanguard arm shot wouldn’t kill outright.

    I’ll take a look at the other stuff.



  • @Martin:

    Warhammer…

    I think a lot of people might disagree with you here, myself included, as you can’t really balance a game around people missing. The suggested changes simply add an additional move into the fray - a kick finisher, or if you don’t have the stamina, one additional attack, even the very quick stab will do it, so there’s a reason to the use the Warhammer stab now too!

    Why not? MIsses happen, especially against a MAA or someone sprinting around you. Having to wait a long time before being able to block is a real disadvantage, especially on a weapon that can’t even 1 shot an archer with a headshot! This is a weapon designed to kill knights, so it better well be able to. And I don’t know what games everyone’s playing where a warhammer knight is dominating, it’s been so long since I’ve even seen one.

    @Martin:

    Broad dagger, saber…

    How so? I am curious as to why you would pick a Broad Dagger over the Shortsword if it retained its old values, especially considering its a much shorter weapon and is not that much faster. The old Broad Dagger took 4 body slashes to an MAA, 5 to a Vanguard and 7 to a Knight. With regards to the Saber point too, the old values offered no reason to use the Saber slash attacks over the Shortsword because the Shortswords stab deals naturally higher damage because of the cut resistance (plus the slashing damage was exactly the same as the Shortsword too, making the Saber an extremely poor choice because of its speed); the blunt resistance is a bit irrelevent in this case, as I was only comparing the Saber to the Shortsword.

    I’d try broad dagger for flinch spam. Idle flinch is being added, and that makes fast attacks much stronger since even 1 handers won’t be able to sneak an attack in.

    Saber has quite a bit longer range than the broadsword. Like the broadsword, any three hits from it kills a MAA. I don’t see the problem.

    @Martin:

    falchion…

    This is intentional. The Falchion is strictly a cutting weapon, unlike the more all-rounded Broadsword. You will find a Falchion slash + overhead, or even slash + slash constantly outperform the Broadsword.

    Yes, but don’t think having a weak stab is meaningless. Versatility is an advantage. How much of an advantage I don’t know exactly, but just hold off on the nerfs until we find out for sure.

    One last thing. Despite this massive changelog, almost none of it buffs vanguards who really needs something to account for archers murdering their shieldless selves. Smoke pot buff, faster charge attacks, resistances, something needs to be done.



  • I’ve said this before, but I think one of the biggest balance problems Chivalry is going to struggle with with the way things are is redundancy stemming from many weapons just being too similar. A big part of this is the lethality of all weapons - generally every weapon is a 1-3 hit kill depending on class. While I like how fast paced this makes the combat, it’s bogging down the purpose of slower or shorter reaching weapons dealing more damage, because essentially the only stats that really matter right now are hits to kill, reach and speed - actual numerical damage means nothing. A weapon that does 90 damage to a knight is basically identical in practical damage to a weapon that does 50 damage to a knight.

    Take the Norse Sword vs. the Broadsword for example, a slight increase in damage on its stab making it a vastly superior weapon because it improved hits to kill - where the same is not the case for the War Axe’s damage advantage over the Hatchet, both taking the same # of hits in any case. The versatility of the broadsword barely comes into play, and I think just improving the stab of the War Axe won’t change anything about that weapon for the same reason - while it’s nice from a personal standpoint to be able to mix up your attacks, mixing attacks has almost no practical purpose with Chivalry’s swing system allowing you to manipulate a stab to act like a slash (also a problem making stabs generally superior overall). Of course, there are cases where attacks offer a proper variety. The Pole Axe is a great example of this, and one of my favorite weapons because of it.

    As such, I really have trouble thinking of balance in Chivalry being solved by small numbers tweaks here and there. I think it’ll require a more sweeping big picture method to give definitive purpose to every single weapon on an individual level. So here’s an example of what I would do, using the halberd/bardiche/billhook because halberd vs. billhook is one of the most polarized examples of one weapon just being blatantly superior in every way to another.

    Old Halberd

    Description:

    The halberd is primarily used as a stab weapon though overhead strikes can deal significant damage as well due to the massive total weight of the weapon.

    Damage / Windup / Combo / Release / Recovery / Knockback:

    Slash: 70 SwingBlunt / .6 / .75 / .6 / .8 / 325
    Overhead: 85 SwingBlunt / .6 / .75 / .6 / .8 / 300
    Stab: 75 Pierce / .6 / .75 / .5 / .7 / 330
    Sprint: 105 Pierce / ? / ? / ? / ? / 425

    Summary:

    It’s for stabbing. Hits to kill are relatively the same regardless of attack - if for some reason you don’t want to stab, slash is your better option against anything but a Knight where overheads with some accuracy can provide a 2 hit kill. Slash is easy. I don’t care how good you are, easier techniques minimize player error. Sprint attack is nothing special, despite being the strongest in the game; requiring headshots to kill with something as unwieldy as the VG’s sprint attacks is just silly.

    New Halberd

    Description:

    The halberd’s primary advantage over other polearms is its reach and weight distribution allowing for powerful thrusts and overheads at long range, but these same attributes make it slow to recover from a swing.

    Damage / Windup / Combo / Release / Recovery / Knockback:

    Slash: 55 SwingBlunt / .45 / .65 / .4 / .75 / 365
    Overhead: 90 SwingBlunt / .6 / .9 / .5 / .85 / 310
    Stab: 75 Pierce / .5 / .9 / .4 / .9 / 340
    Sprint: 120 Pierce / ? / ? / ? / ? / 465

    Summary:

    Creating and keeping distance is the name of the game here. Overall, faster windups and releases on your two main damaging attacks, but very lengthy recoveries and combos meaning if you miss you’ll almost definitely eat a hit in return. Your slashes are now considerably quicker but considerably weaker, an incredible tool for creating distance or finishing a low health enemy but generally not something to rely on for damage. Overheads are stronger, allowing a 2 hit kill against Knights with only a single headshot instead of 2 headshots as well as killing cleaving off archer heads in one blow. However, they’re your weakest tool for creating distance. Stabs are the middleground for speed, damage and knockback while retaining the advantage stabs have in regards to optimal reach. Sprint attack increased to kill MaA/Archer with a body hit as well as taking off a bigger chunk of a knight/VG’s health - also knocks back enemies considerably so you can use it without sacrificing your range advantage.

    Old Bardiche

    Description:

    An extremely long and powerful slashing polearm, the Bardiche is a fearsome weapon but must avoid getting into close lest the wielder be overwhelmed.

    Damage / Windup / Combo / Release / Recovery / Knockback:

    Slash: 80 SwingBlunt / .55 / .7 / .65 / .9 / 325
    Overhead: 100 SwingBlunt / .55 / .7 / .7 / .9 / 225
    Stab: 40 Pierce / .55 / .7 / .55 / .7 / 225
    Sprint: 85 Pierce / ? / ? / ? / ? / 425

    Summary:

    Your basic slashspam weapon. Utterly worthless stab that doesn’t even create distance, terrible sprint attack, but fast windups and decent combo speeds on its slashes. Long releases and recoveries in combination with relatively short reach and weak stab make it a pretty simplistic weapon - you pretend you’re a windmill until someone parries you.

    New Bardiche

    Description:

    The heaviest hitter in the Vanguard’s arsenal, sacrificing reach and speed for raw power and providing brutal single strike damage.

    Damage / Windup / Combo / Release / Recovery / Knockback:

    Slash: 90 SwingBlunt / .75 / .85 / .6 / .9 / 315
    Overhead: 125 SwingBlunt / .8 / .95 / .7 / 1 / 275
    Stab: 40 Pierce / .5 / .6 / .5 / .7 / 340
    Sprint: 85 Pierce / ? / ? / ? / ? / 425

    Summary:

    The Vanguard’s maul - not quite as brutal against Knights, but still cleaves fellow Vanguards’ heads clean off with one downstrike. Compared to the maul, it has a quicker but weaker stab (distance tool), weaker slashes, longer windups, combos and releases, but quicker recoveries and of course a reach advantage. Compared to other polearms, it’s slower all-around and shorter than the halberd, but obviously packs a huge punch - and still retains the drawback of a weak (but not quite as weak) stab, which as previously explained is pretty clutch.

    Old Billhook

    Description:

    The billhook is a fearsome polearm that sacrifices a bit of range for significantly faster strikes.

    Damage / Windup / Combo / Release / Recovery / Knockback:

    Slash: 65 SwingBlunt / .65 / .8 / .55 / .65 / 325
    Overhead: 75 SwingBlunt / .65 / .8 / .55 / .75 / 225
    Stab: 70 Pierce / .65 / .8 / .5 / .6 / 325
    Sprint: 100 Pierce / ? / ? / ? / ? / 425

    Summary:

    Longest windups and combos of any polearm, quickest release and recovery - generally speaking you’ll attack about as frequently with the billhook as you will with the bardiche or halberd, but you’ll do less damage per hit and your range is silly-short.

    New Billhook

    Description:

    The billhook is a lightweight polearm well suited to making quick attacks, making up for its shorter reach and lighter damage with versatility and the ability to chain strikes together smoothly.

    Damage / Windup / Combo / Release / Recovery / Knockback:

    Slash: 65 Swing / .55 / .6 / .5 / .8 / 300
    Overhead: 65 SwingBlunt / .6 / .65 / .5 / .75 / 250
    Stab: 60 Pierce / .5 / .6 / .45 / .7 / 325
    Sprint: 100 Pierce / ? / ? / ? / ? / 425

    Summary:

    Damage gets a meaningful drop - speed gets a massive boost to everything but recovery, particularly in ability to combo. This is a weapon you want to keep attacking with; a weapon you would prefer to bait enemies with a missed strike into a combo than feint with because it combos so quickly, and only go into a parry-counter battle when you have no other option, making it vastly different from the other polearms.

    Obviously this kind of balance takes a lot more factors into consideration, and would take longer, perhaps being less effective in the short term - but I think it’s the only way to make the game as close to balanced as possible in the long run, otherwise there will always be situations like the broadsword v. norse sword, hatchet v. war axe, halberd v. billhook, etc. where small number advantages or good-on-paper attack variety just aren’t enough to make a weapon an alternative rather than a blatant upgrade.



  • Ah I forgot one thing in my last post:

    -increase the damage of all 2h slash charge attacks (2h swords) to 110
    -increase the damage of all 2h stab charge attacks (spears and polearms) to 125

    This is a real no brainer imho, as these attacks are supposed to be scary. Right now most of them are not even the strongest attack for that particular weapon. Being hit by them (if that ever happens…) should be some serious punishment.



  • I was thinking similarly to slygoat- because this game has very high lethality it leaves very little room for weapons to be seperated too much from each other in terms of stats.

    The stab = swing thing is also a big problem, perhaps lowering the active time on some stabs so that you can’t mousedrag after the impact (as well as lowering the activetime on slashes) might even give a new category for weapon balancing. I just feel silly when I mousedrag a stab and it kills them after the impact/as the weapon is retracting.