Why keep the only overpowered setup?



  • All hand and a half swords (except messer) combined with shield are absurdly overpowered. I never really had a problem with people using norse sword but since it’s getting nerfed I am wondering why hand and a half swords aren’t. Sword of war + Shield is the most powerful setup you could have in game. This setup is basically norse sword but with a far longer reach. There is no real weakness, you retain the reach of a 2h, the damage of a 2h, and the speed of a 1h plus a shield. It is an obvious problem.

    Edit: I’m talking duels here, I haven’t really played high level team games yet to know if this setup would be op there.



  • indeed , i never had any problem fighting people who used the norse sword … but in the beta a good heavy knight is imposible to kill … seriously knight with the sword of war with a shield is just the best class ever … seriously , this is ridiculous at best



  • @batman666:

    indeed , i never had any problem fighting people who used the norse sword … but in the beta a good heavy knight is imposible to kill … seriously knight with the sword of war with a shield is just the best class ever … seriously , this is ridiculous at best

    Some people are also impossible to kill (in the non beta one) who can defend decent, with all shields. You played the beta, so I guess there has bin a big change in damage. Anyway, more people gonna use shields, so that is a good thing, cause of the archers, I guess.



  • You should check this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1
    The weapon its a little bit faster, but it has lower damage.



  • Forgive whats possibly a dumb question, but is there a way to equip the hand and a half swords with a shield?

    I don’t think I’ve seen anyone doing it myself and am at a loss to understand what is being referred to above. I know it says the Sword of War can be used with one or two hands, but it doesn’t seem to allow you to use your shield with it. What am I missing?



  • @Bran:

    Forgive whats possibly a dumb question, but is there a way to equip the hand and a half swords with a shield?

    I don’t think I’ve seen anyone doing it myself and am at a loss to understand what is being referred to above. I know it says the Sword of War can be used with one or two hands, but it doesn’t seem to allow you to use your shield with it. What am I missing?

    While having the sword just press 1 again and it will take out the shield.



  • @Metrocop:

    You should check this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1
    The weapon its a little bit faster, but it has lower damage.

    The way I see it the small hit to damage is irrelevant. You are still able to 3 shot knights and 2 shot everything else with 1h sword of war. Couple that with the increase to speed (you would think swinging a sword one handed would be slower then swinging the same sword with two hands), the reach of the sword, and a shield and you have an overpowered dueling setup.



  • @Metrocop:

    You should check this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1
    The weapon its a little bit faster, but it has lower damage.

    This is exactly what makes it “norse sword” v2. It keeps all of it’s required hits to kill, while getting faster and giving you a tower shield. You don’t even need to hit a knights head for 3 hit kill, as you did with the norse sword. While the norse sword was much faster and thus more powerful, 1h sword of war is slightly op due to the current power of shields imho.



  • Hey, you may or may not know me as “I say GF if I win” And this is precisely the set up I used. Lets clear up a few things first off.

    1. I believe or would like to believe that I am one of the first people who began to use this setup. I decided I wanted to play knight, and have always loved shields. As a result I used the standard sword and enjoyed it because i liked stabbing. Then I tried the sword of war, didnt really not much about damage values, but I noticed I was doing pretty good with it. So i’ve been using it since.

    2. To reinforce the statement made in section 1 I have been told my various players that the reason that they use the same setup is due to fighting me

    3. I do not feel that the sword of war is overpowered, but im not just blowing smoke. I have evidence to back it up with.

    Okay, so i’ve clarified that I did not specifically choose the Sword of War due to the fact that it was overpowered, and that I believe I have a counterargument as to it being overpowered.

    The following is a point counterpoint to the overpowered discussion:

    {The sword of war is an improved Norse Sword:} Granted the sword of war has the stabbing power of the Norse sword, if not a bit better. But there is a key difference between the two. The norse sword is accessible to the Man at arms, while the S.o.W is not. This is a very important factor to notice. The knight cannot quickly jump forward at someone and launch of an amazingly quick stab. If you put yourself in the knights range, that is your fault. It is not like he lunged at you and put you in an unavoidable situation. This argument could be counterpointed by saying that the S.o.W has a longer range, but that point would also be rendered moot by the fact that stabbing is the easiest possible attack to miss. This is not an opinion, both the slash and overhead cover much more ground than the stab.

    The sword of war 2-3 shots all classes: Sure it does, so does the hammer, the maul, the halberd, the bardiche, the dane axe, maybe even the mace and morning star if you’re a bit lucky. The point is I dont believe an argument should be based on how many hits it takes to kill someone, due to the fact that I have been in fights where due to health regen it has taken many more. Therefore on a higher skill leve of play, when hits arent landed as quickly as usual (In addition to other weapons having the same capability), this point is rendered moot.

    The sword of war has too long a reach: See point/counterpoint 1

    The sword of war outclasses the other two swords: Not true in the slightest. We must take into account the raw damage output of the messer, and the fact that many times it is easier to land overheads and slashes on shield users than stabs. The sword of War has an incredibly weak slash, making it more difficult to land hits without a great deal of practice, while the messer and bastard sword can be used more easily.

    The sword of wars stab is much too quick: This one may be true, but this has a down side believe it or not. while feinting, if I riposte too quickly, you will parry the attack anyway. This will be rendered moot with the upcoming feint nerf, yet this point still has one issue: If we nerf the sword of war like we did the norse sword, then we as a community are quite literally saying “Anything that is good at stabbing is overpowered.” The only other pure stabbing weapons left to nerf thats not a vanguard weapon is the thrusting dagger which knights dont have access to, and we are therefore depriving the knight of a stabbing weapon that is not also an all purpose weapon such as the broadsword. Thats it, and what will you attack next… that?

    Conclusion: The sword of war may have a very high damaging stab, but the stab is one of the easiest attacks to miss, and can be parried through a feint if you are lucky enough to have a S.p.W user who feints too quickly. The S.o.W also has a pitiful swing, and an overhead which isn’t anything to write home about, and is therefore a very predictable weapon. The S.o.W is also only available to the knight, who cannot unpredictably close a gap and stab you much like the norse sword wielding M.A.A, and finally, the S.o.W is not the end all be all knight Sword due to the fact that the messer can be less predictable, and (WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS AN OPINION) can more easily get around shields with its more powerful overhead attacks.



  • @JtheSwift93:

    Conclusion: The sword of war may have a very high damaging stab, but the stab is one of the easiest attacks to miss, and can be parried through a feint if you are lucky enough to have a S.p.W user who feints too quickly. The S.o.W also has a pitiful swing, and an overhead which isn’t anything to write home about, and is therefore a very predictable weapon. The S.o.W is also only available to the knight, who cannot unpredictably close a gap and stab you much like the norse sword wielding M.A.A, and finally, the S.o.W is not the end all be all knight Sword due to the fact that the messer can be less predictable, and (WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS AN OPINION) can more easily get around shields with its more powerful overhead attacks.

    Opinion noted. However I dissagree about most of the things you said. First, in my opinion and indeed my experience the stab attack is the easiest to hit and hardest to block. It is the best attack to go around shields with, or at least equal to the overhead. You can feint up then step to right and turn to the left to go around a shield, ofcourse you know this combo. I also do not see how the stab attack being fast can be a disadvantage, feinting too quickly is purely a beginner error. Second, sow has greater range then any maa weapon if you use feints and range correctly maa should not be a problem for you (ofcourse it is very easy to make a mistake and be overwhelmed in seconds).

    You also made a point to compare 1h sow dmg to other weapons, but what you failed to note is the speed and reach of the said weapons. The problem with the sow is its ability to 2-3 hit with lightning speed at pretty darn good reach.

    Finally, you may be right about the messer but I have yet to see one being used effectively with a board so I will hold out any comment about it.



  • Opinion noted. However I dissagree about most of the things you said. First, in my opinion and indeed my experience the stab attack is the easiest to hit and hardest to block. It is the best attack to go around shields with, or at least equal to the overhead. You can feint up then step to right and turn to the left to go around a shield, ofcourse you know this combo. I also do not see how the stab attack being fast can be a disadvantage, feinting too quickly is purely a beginner error. Second, sow has greater range then any maa weapon if you use feints and range correctly maa should not be a problem for you (ofcourse it is very easy to make a mistake and be overwhelmed in seconds).

    You also made a point to compare 1h sow dmg to other weapons, but what you failed to note is the speed and reach of the said weapons. The problem with the sow is its ability to 2-3 hit with lightning speed at pretty darn good reach.

    Finally, you may be right about the messer but I have yet to see one being used effectively with a board so I will hold out any comment about it.

    I agree that stabs are decent for going around shields, but not as much so as swings.

    If you are hugging an opponent face to face, and turn slightly right, a swing with a longer weapon goes right around their shield, this is something I know from experience.

    In response to failing to mention the speed and reach of said weapons I counter with the following: The longsword has only 1% less reach than the norse sword, and is also capable of a quite fast, yet less damaging stab. All around this sword therefore has a disadvantage in stabs, but retains its all around quality with its swings and overheads coming out with a higher damage than the S.o.W making it better against lesser armored classes such as the vanguard (due to the fact that stabs pierce armore more effectively). Also the messer may come up shorthanded in speed and reach as you said, but it not only boasts a 60% damage rating, but does incredible damage on its overhead attack even to heavily armored characters, while retaining a speed that differs barely from the sword of war.

    In regards to stabbing being easiest to hit and hardest to block, im not arguing this standpoint based on opinion. The stab has the smallest window to actually hurt people with. Im not sure what this is called but I refer to it as an 'active window." While in addition, has a tracer which covers less area in total than the other two attack types. Statistically the stab has a smaller chance of hitting enemy players than the other two types of attacks, which the S.o.W is not built to do.

    in response to not understanding how a stab attack can be a disadvantage: It does not matter whether or not something is a “beginner” error, I’m not trying to base my argument on opinion. Regardless of what kind of error it is, it can be made, and can be a disadvantage. This of course will be fixed with the next upcoming patch. Also, another disadvantage of a fast stab could be having the attack come out too early. Once again you will probably attempt to counter argue this by saying that this is also a “beginner error” but it is something that can happen, and something that should be taken into consideration. For example, sometimes it is better to have a slow attack, think of a situation in which an opponent feints into a block for your incoming strike, but it doesnt matter because you have a slower weapon and can in effect either A) “malstrike” a term coined by shara in his Advanced combat Tutorial # 2 Shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7cTvQklWvU or B) your attack could have its hit delayed long enough to bypass his parry.



  • No point of arguing. Fact, when you join a populated duel server there are always one or two people dominating with this setup. It is funny to watch because they are not even good. Actually most of the time they are terrible, and get absolutely demolished if they play any other setup. Sword and board is, simply put, easy mode.

    With the nerf to feints and introduction of idle stagger sword and board is only getting stronger. Already most higher level players are switching to this setup and I’m afraid after the patch it will simply be sword and board or faceplant city.



  • @Fatgun:

    No point of arguing. Fact, when you join a populated duel server there are always one or two people dominating with this setup. It is funny to watch because they are not even good. Actually most of the time they are terrible, and get absolutely demolished if they play any other setup. Sword and board is, simply put, easy mode.

    With the nerf to feints and introduction of idle stagger sword and board is only getting stronger. Already most higher level players are switching to this setup and I’m afraid after the patch it will simply be sword and board or faceplant city.

    “Most of the higher level players”: Names? Videos? References? Quotes?

    “No point of arguing. Fact, when you join a populated duel server there are always one or two people dominating with this setup.” : Perhaps were missing something here then, are you saying we should balance this game completely around dueling? This is a defensive build, which is not very effective if you are in a gigantic mosh pit, in there you are surround by both friend and foe, aggression tends to win the upper hand in that situation. This goes back to old arguments on World of Warcraft forums where the developers attempted to balance the game simply based upon 3v3 pvp, which you cannot do. We cannot balance the game based on solely duels, we need to take into account other game modes. In addition, i have fought other players whom use this setup, and I have beaten them, in fact I can switch to the hammer, the messer, even the broadsword or falchion and still beat them.
    oh and psssst : thats not a fact bucko, thats called speculation.

    Its like the people who argue that the throwing knives and axes shouldnt be used in duels. I can use my shield, why can they use their tools? It’s stupidity and its only being presented because people will always find something to be upset about. In fact, I want you to take note of this: IF then S.o.W gets nerfed, THERE WILL BE SOMETHING ELSE people will argue is overpowered. It will be completely endless. So now I have people complaining that I shouldn’t be allowed to use the weapons I have trained with for so long? Why, because you don’t like it? You can get around shields, you can parry and block stabs, you can overwhelm me.

    “It is funny to watch because they are not even good”:Actually most of the time they are terrible: In addition, i have fought other players whom use this setup, and I have beaten them, in fact I can switch to the hammer, the messer, even the broadsword or falchion and still beat them, if the player is bad, he can be beaten. A peasant with a large sword does not a warrior make.

    “and get absolutely demolished if they play any other setup.”: have you ever thought that maybe they are more well practiced with the weapons they have at hand? Many people get demolished when trying something new. Going from a 1 handed sword to a maul? Big difference, big adjustment. This is a weak argument.

    Warning( THE FOLLOWING IS AN OPINION): “Sword and board is, simply put, easy mode.”: Low skill floor, High skill ceiling.

    "With the nerf to feints and introduction of idle stagger sword and board is only getting stronger. ": How does idle stagger = stronger knights? You do realize that many knights take advantage of this to harm others right? This is a global mechanic which will effect all classes equally. As for feints, I can easily see how this harms two handers more than one handers, and I can accept that point.



  • Heh “trained with”, implying this setup takes any skill. We dueled a few days ago, it was the first time i used this setup and we went 50/50. So all that time you “perfected your style” and some first timer goes toe to toe with you, I must be a real talent. I think this setup is easy to learn, easy to master, and overly effective in both offense and defense.



  • Dueling me a handful of times is no basis for comparison, (If we even did duel, I dont remember dueling a man named fatgun) there are many factors that can take effect when it comes to a fight. You cannot tell me that luck, alertness level, and many other outside factors dont play a role in the outcome of a fight.



  • @JtheSwift93:

    Dueling me a handful of times is no basis for comparison, (If we even did duel, I dont remember dueling a man named fatgun) there are many factors that can take effect when it comes to a fight. You cannot tell me that luck, alertness level, and many other outside factors dont play a role in the outcome of a fight.

    You don’t remember because thats not what I go by ingame. We dueled maybe a few dozen times. Results were always the same, I beat you a few times and you beat me a few times. My point is if all you play is sword and board I should not just be able to walce into your domain and compete with you even if you are having a bad day, the same goes for you grabbing a 2h sword and competing with me (2h is what I usually play with). If you can then you can only assume that either player skill is lacking or there is a very low skill ceiling.



  • “and compete with you even if you are having a bad day”

    I feel this is wholly false, If you wish to have a strong argument based on fact, then you must conduct your experiment with all the variables under control.



  • @JtheSwift93:

    “and compete with you even if you are having a bad day”

    I feel this is wholly false, If you wish to have a strong argument based on fact, then you must conduct your experiment with all the variables under control.

    There is no reasonable way to control these variables, following trends is sufficient enough in this case.

    edit: Edited out previous message cause I thought you had left, still up for a duel though.



  • Im using the sword of war with the smaller shield and I think that its not op.
    I played the crusader in aoc thats why i like to play it in cmw.
    Im over rank 30 and im dominating the game. Where is the problem? Its your fault to do always the same mistakes and its my thing if i can block you. You think, that this setup is op? Just use it and get destroyed. And i can do the same things with other weapons with a little practice. You just dont know how to beat a shield. And then you are confused about the speed of the sword. So dont say that this is op. That may sounds arrogant but thats my point of view. sry^^

    –>Just stop to say that weapons are op, because you will always find sth which is in your opinion op. I agree completely with JtheSwift93



  • There are a lot of opinions being thrown around in this thread. By the numbers, the Sword of War - and really, the onehanded Knight swords in general - are overpowered compared to other onehanded weapons. This is really a case where you have to ask yourself, is the Knight such a weak class statistically that he requires superior weapons? I don’t think so; he’s got ridiculous armor, being the only class in the game that cannot die in one hit to anything, and cannot die in 2 hits to any MaA and most Vanguard weapons (I believe the Brandistock, Bardiche and Halberd are the only ones that can 2 shot a knight in practice, all requiring headshots).

    He also gets the largest shields, which brings us to another numerical point of fact - larger shields are also overpowered. At current, their only downside is blocking more of your screen and having a slower drop time. Both of these are negated by competent use of the shield, either playing in third person to eliminate the screen blocking entirely, or only putting your shield up when the enemy starts swinging - and of course, if you make an attack while holding your shield up, you skip the shield drop animation entirely. Meanwhile, their strengths are just raw strengths with nothing a smaller shield user can do to compensate for - they take less stamina to block with, and they block more area so they’re harder to get around.

    Finally, the use of a shield in general - while theoretically a point of preference - is right now just an advantage. You don’t have to time your blocks, you cannot be feinted, and you have a much faster counterattack (to counterattack off of a successful parry, you use your combo windup - which is slower than your normal windup, which you use to attack while holding your shield up, even though you can attack immediately). So minus the screen blocking your view, which as already noted can be completely negated, shields are just an advantage over no shield. In fact, they also counter the Knight’s other tertiary weapon option, making them not only overpowered in comparison to parries but overpowered in comparison to the items that are supposedly equivalent to shields.

    So, combining the fact that Knights get numerically superior onehanders and numerically superior shields, objectively the bastard sword setup in general is stronger than other weapon loadouts available to the Knight or any other melee class (ignoring archers as we can’t really compare ranged to melee). Whether the bastard swords need toning down or other Knight weapons need toning up depends on your view on if the Knight is underpowered or not as a class - personally I don’t think that’s the case at all as I see Knights doing fine using Man-at-Arms weapons. Of course his twohanders are lackluster just like all twohanders but that’s pretty much a universal issue.


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