New passive for Vanguard



  • Remove charge attack, replace with Regen:

    Vanguards regain health very quickly when out of combat, continues even when sprinting, does not include stamina.

    The idea is for it to “start” as you would any normal health regen, but once started each “tick” of health regen you get will occur much quicker than on other classes. This will keep the “pace” of the vanguard and allow them to have more survivability/getting in and out of fights quickly and feel much less punishing for how squishy they are and just how they’re only archer fodder currently.

    Sound good/bad? Why? What do you think?



  • Charge attack doesn’t need removing, it just needs a few buffs to make it an attack worth doing to penalise your opponent so you have the advantage over them.



  • I say, keep the charging ability, and add a faster (not much) health regen



  • Okay, even if charge attack got remade, I still believe vanguards need to be more tanky or have some sort of means to deal with taking damage.



  • Sprint Attack design is lazy. Give everyone a sprint attack and think of something new for Vanguard that isn’t as equally lazy as the Knight’s passive.



  • The idea why vanguards was used in the medieval battles, was to have units that could hold the enemy at distance, to deal with horses, and charge to the front lines. Don’t tell me you haven’t seen people with spear in the front lines in a medieval movie…

    They weren’t tanks, that was left to mounted knights, but in chivalry, dismounted knights currently do that job, with their thick armor, and big shields



  • health regen sounds sweet to me! I don’t care about the charge anyway, but with extra health regen they would actually be able to go in first and build pressure on the enemy lines like their name implies. Atm, you’re better off to be the 2nd one in, hiding behind your friends and score freehits due to your range or engage an isolated target in a 1v1 situation.( vanguards are not bad at this - it’s just not what the term ‘vanguard’ means).
    Other options are:
    -reduce damage of first hit recieved (with cooldown)
    -smokepot buff



  • Being a big Vanguard nutter, I really would like the idea of an increase to HP regen. Being a tactical and safe player, i often run from battle to lick my wounds, and exploit the oppositions flanks. (That is, murder archers before they can block my zweihander with a butter knife!) :D

    However, being a top-tier chiv player, i would say that the Vanguard’s leaping attack, is far too situational,especially against better players, it is just outright unneccesary if you are hoping to survive most fights.

    @Martin:

    Charge attack doesn’t need removing, it just needs a few buffs to make it an attack worth doing to penalise your opponent so you have the advantage over them.

    I do hope, their ‘special ability’ or leap is reworked in some way, which makes it more worthwhile. Perhaps, more damage… IDK, or drains their stamina to fatal levels upon impact, again IDK.

    I’m quiet happy with Vanguard atm as i believe i have his strengths and weaknesses worked out, however only being human I will take any buffs to the class, as it will only benefact me at the end of the day.



  • Okay, even if charge attack got remade, I still believe vanguards need to be more tanky or have some sort of means to deal with taking damage.

    No.

    Vanguard has reach of his weapons to prevent him from taking damage by damaging enemies before they can reach him. Charge is really potent with a two handed sword (pointy weapons aren’t as dangerous when charging, although you can force enemies to ground away with that) and I really see no point in addting faster health regeneration to a vanguard. Why not to men at arms?



  • Vanguards are not overpowered, nor underpowered. Learn how to use its advantage with polearms and generally the other long-ranged melee weapon it has. Maybe the vanguard isn’t the most ideal duel class, but out of four classes, one of them has to be the least powerful right? They can’t be all just as powerful. Vanguard is very equal to the guardsman class back in age of chivalry. Fair good at fighting solo, beast when it comes to teamplay.

    So in my opinion, i feel like vanguards are alright. The charge abillity needs a buff though.
    Learn how to play the classes instead of complaining to make a good class easier ;)



  • Vanguards are not overpowered, nor underpowered. Learn how to use its advantage with polearms and generally the other long-ranged melee weapon it has. Maybe the vanguard isn’t the most ideal duel class, but out of four classes, one of them has to be the least powerful right? They can’t be all just as powerful. Vanguard is very equal to the guardsman class back in age of chivalry. Fair good at fighting solo, beast when it comes to teamplay.

    So in my opinion, i feel like vanguards are alright. The charge abillity needs a buff though.
    Learn how to play the classes instead of complaining to make a good class easier ;)



  • Other than the unavoidable free damage archers get, you aren’t supposed to take damage in this game. That’s why health regen is so slow and restricted, and there’s no magical healing class. I’m upset enough that the Knight’s “special ability” is so boring, don’t need VGs to suffer the same fate.



  • @Holy.Death:

    No.

    Vanguard has reach of his weapons to prevent him from taking damage by damaging enemies before they can reach him. Charge is really potent with a two handed sword (pointy weapons aren’t as dangerous when charging, although you can force enemies to ground away with that) and I really see no point in addting faster health regeneration to a vanguard. Why not to men at arms?

    I don’t think charge attack is good even with a 2h sword. It’s so easy to avoid if you have half a brain. No serious player ever uses it unless it’s in the middle of some chaos, which even then you’re just better off with an overhead. I wish I could slash instead of charge attack 99% of the time. Also, MaA has dodge so that’s why not MaA.

    @wildwulfy:

    Vanguards are not overpowered, nor underpowered. Learn how to use its advantage with polearms and generally the other long-ranged melee weapon it has. Maybe the vanguard isn’t the most ideal duel class, but out of four classes, one of them has to be the least powerful right? They can’t be all just as powerful. Vanguard is very equal to the guardsman class back in age of chivalry. Fair good at fighting solo, beast when it comes to teamplay.

    So in my opinion, i feel like vanguards are alright. The charge abillity needs a buff though.
    Learn how to play the classes instead of complaining to make a good class easier ;)

    Oh, it’s this guy who’s still learning how to play the game. Vanguards are definitely underpowered in most situations, they do need some help. Long reach melee weapons don’t do so much against competent players, obviously which you never play against. I know how to play vanguard, I know how to play them well enough that I was able to come up with this amazing suggestion. It’s funny how you say “they’re not underpowered, they’re least powerful, charge attack does need a buff, but learn how to play it.” In 5vs5 situations, I think health regen would be just as great there and much much better than charge attack. Also, how would you buff charge attack instead?

    @SlyGoat:

    Other than the unavoidable free damage archers get, you aren’t supposed to take damage in this game. That’s why health regen is so slow and restricted, and there’s no magical healing class. I’m upset enough that the Knight’s “special ability” is so boring, don’t need VGs to suffer the same fate.

    VGs are going to take damage a lot because they don’t have a shield. So how about if it only kicked in after taking ranged damage? This would make archers think twice before aiming for that delicious unshielded useless vanguard, at least sometimes. It would make things more interesting for archers IMO, forcing them to think about aiming at shields or a quickly regenerating target. Vanguards have no means of dealing with ranged attacks at all, because they don’t have shields. That throwing axe or smoke pot isn’t going to stop anything. Also, I don’t think it’s boring at all that knights take reduced TK damage, I think it’s fantastic.



  • @MUSASHI:

    Sprint Attack design is lazy. Give everyone a sprint attack and think of something new for Vanguard that isn’t as equally lazy as the Knight’s passive.

    I want sprint attack with my maul! :o SMAAAAASSSSHHHH!



  • I don’t think charge attack is good even with a 2h sword. It’s so easy to avoid if you have half a brain. No serious player ever uses it unless it’s in the middle of some chaos, which even then you’re just better off with an overhead.

    Two handed sword’s charge slashes in a wide arc. Spear’s stab charge is quite long and has a potential to kill several people in a row if they’re crowding into the tight pass. Even if you don’t deal damage you’re forcing an enemy to block or disengage while you charge and if you hit you deal additional damage. That isn’t nothing.

    Spear is best used with a teammate, because you can use advantage of long reach to point out the enemy who will try to deal with more than one enemy (making it harder for him to simply ran as close as possible to kill you), helping your ally to finish him off or killing him yourself by constant stabbing and keeping distance.

    With two handed swords you can turn attacks into defense, because men at arms and archers don’t have as long weapons, meaning they’ll need to come closer, endangering themselves. If you have a clear line of attack charge is quite good thing to be used from my experience, because it needs to be blocked or avoided. Stabs and overhead attacks can also be used in the crowded combat or tight passes and reach of the weapon again comes into the play.

    Very efficient counter against vanguards and two handed knights are - from my experience - the archers, exactly because they don’t have shields equipped. That’s the point. If you nerf them you’ll create a problem of these two classes dominating the battle and that’s bad thing.

    Also, MaA has dodge so that’s why not MaA.

    My point is men at arms needs more help than a vanguard, in my opinion.

    VGs are going to take damage a lot because they don’t have a shield. So how about if it only kicked in after taking ranged damage? This would make archers think twice before aiming for that delicious unshielded useless vanguard, at least sometimes. It would make things more interesting for archers IMO, forcing them to think about aiming at shields or a quickly regenerating target.

    What about switich the class to knight with tower shield or be near knights with tower shields? I fail to see the point - figuratively speaking - of weakening archers, because they counter vanguards that well. That’s their job; to take out enemies at range. Making archers useless to satisfy another class is pointless.

    Also, I don’t think it’s boring at all that knights take reduced TK damage, I think it’s fantastic.

    That might be one of a few reasons why some people use swinging in the thick of the fighting that much… I often find friendlies damaging me more than enemies and in case of the man at arms, they are even more likely to kill me.



  • @Martin:

    Charge attack doesn’t need removing, it just needs a few buffs to make it an attack worth doing to penalise your opponent so you have the advantage over them.

    That’s right!

    All those believing that it’s useless are so wrong…And that good players don’t use this kind of attack(really?!?) trying to prove how good they are or something,uh gimme a break…Stop being so ignorant,I’m bored of listening people saying how good they are.Actually,it is useful,you just have to know how to use it.For example,if I have a knight in front of me and want to get some distance in order to have an advantage with my long weapon as a vanguard,I charge at him and push him back.This way I demoralize him getting the upper hand,because if the knight gets close he’s gonna have the advantage.

    I’m expecting though charging to be more fearsome…It should reduce a really big deal of stamina to the defender and a dagger or even some other weapons should not stop an aggressive charge,but just reduce the impact(depending on the weapon).



  • @Holy.Death:

    Two handed sword’s charge slashes in a wide arc. Spear’s stab charge is quite long and has a potential to kill several people in a row if they’re crowding into the tight pass. Even if you don’t deal damage you’re forcing an enemy to block or disengage while you charge and if you hit you deal additional damage. That isn’t nothing.

    It is nothing, because no half decent enemy will even be anywhere near you to need to block or disengage. They’ll avoid and punish you easy. I can kill vanguards in an overhead and stab before they even finish their charge attack animation, without taking any damage. Anyone who isn’t bad can, too.

    @Holy.Death:

    Very efficient counter against vanguards and two handed knights are - from my experience - the archers, exactly because they don’t have shields equipped. That’s the point. If you nerf them you’ll create a problem of these two classes dominating the battle and that’s bad thing.

    The problem is archers are OP and vanguards are UP. Vanguards are way too weak against archers, to the point where there’s no competition. Vanguards need a way to deal with ranged/being so squishy for a melee class without any defensive capabilities.

    @Holy.Death:

    My point is men at arms needs more help than a vanguard, in my opinion.

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL…. Learn to forward dodge, please.

    @Holy.Death:

    What about switich the class to knight with tower shield or be near knights with tower shields? I fail to see the point - figuratively speaking - of weakening archers, because they counter vanguards that well. That’s their job; to take out enemies at range. Making archers useless to satisfy another class is pointless.

    I already have to play knight too much because vanguards suck too much against half decent archers. That’s a problem. In a 5vs5 when you can only have 2 of each class, it’s 2 archers, 2 man at arms and 1 knight. No need for a vanguard. In public games, vanguards are raped by the millions of warbows or Norse swords. They have no place anywhere against anyone who isn’t bad, no matter how good the vanguard is. I regularly get amazing KDs as vanguard, so yes, I know how to play vanguard. But they need help against good players.

    @johnk17:

    All those believing that it’s useless are so wrong…And that good players don’t use this kind of attack(really?!?) trying to prove how good they are or something,uh gimme a break…Stop being so ignorant,I’m bored of listening people saying how good they are.Actually,it is useful,you just have to know how to use it.For example,if I have a knight in front of me and want to get some distance in order to have an advantage with my long weapon as a vanguard,I charge at him and push him back.This way I demoralize him getting the upper hand,because if the knight gets close he’s gonna have the advantage.

    I’m expecting though charging to be more fearsome…It should reduce a really big deal of stamina to the defender and a dagger or even some other weapons should not stop an aggressive charge,but just reduce the impact(depending on the weapon).

    Obviously you still have a lot more to learn… No knight has a problem getting in a vanguards face, especially with a shield. If I’m a knight and I see a vanguard charge attack me, I lol and side step half an inch to the right if they’re not using a sword, and overhead then stab them before they even finish their animation. If they’re using a sword, I give a little more space but do the same thing anyway.



  • The problem is archers are OP and vanguards are UP. Vanguards are way too weak against archers, to the point where there’s no competition. Vanguards need a way to deal with ranged/being so squishy for a melee class without any defensive capabilities.

    Being able to hit an enemy as archer takes skill. Vanguards aren’t designed to combat archers and projectiles can be “dodged”, which is embarassing. Even the Witcher had to deflect arrows.

    In public games, vanguards are raped by the millions of warbows or Norse swords. They have no place anywhere against anyone who isn’t bad, no matter how good the vanguard is. I regularly get amazing KDs as vanguard, so yes, I know how to play vanguard. But they need help against good players.

    I think duel (1 on 1) and fight in battle are two different things. I am not sure which one you’re currently meaning, but from what I’ve seen it’s not the vanguards who are getting the short end of the stick. You can agree with that or not, but I know what I see.

    In public games, vanguards are raped by the millions of warbows or Norse swords. They have no place anywhere against anyone who isn’t bad, no matter how good the vanguard is. I regularly get amazing KDs as vanguard, so yes, I know how to play vanguard. But they need help against good players.

    Then get help…? There are many people on the battle, both good and bad and that should also be taken into consideration, because 1 on 1 doesn’t show what’s happening when many people fight at the same time. If you aren’t dueling I see no reason why not to use teamwork in order to overcome solo players.



  • @SOC:

    @johnk17:

    All those believing that it’s useless are so wrong…And that good players don’t use this kind of attack(really?!?) trying to prove how good they are or something,uh gimme a break…Stop being so ignorant,I’m bored of listening people saying how good they are.Actually,it is useful,you just have to know how to use it.For example,if I have a knight in front of me and want to get some distance in order to have an advantage with my long weapon as a vanguard,I charge at him and push him back.This way I demoralize him getting the upper hand,because if the knight gets close he’s gonna have the advantage.

    I’m expecting though charging to be more fearsome…It should reduce a really big deal of stamina to the defender and a dagger or even some other weapons should not stop an aggressive charge,but just reduce the impact(depending on the weapon).

    Obviously you still have a lot more to learn… No knight has a problem getting in a vanguards face, especially with a shield. If I’m a knight and I see a vanguard charge attack me, I lol and side step half an inch to the right if they’re not using a sword, and overhead then stab them before they even finish their animation. If they’re using a sword, I give a little more space but do the same thing anyway.

    Well,I don’t think you know who’s the one that has to learn more…
    Almost no knight has been able to avoid my charges and if you don’t know how to keep distance from a knight… :| …well,it is your problem!You see knights are a bit slow in case you didn’t know and can’t avoid any attack easily or move towards an opponent fast enough.Only spearmen or halberdiers may have some difficulty with charging but it is fair and not impossible at all to hit your target straight on(you just have to work on that).

    Maybe you should reconsider how experienced you really are instead of telling people that they need to learn more…



  • I agree wholeheartedly with giving Vanguards extra health regeneration. In organized games with pro archers, Vanguards are fodder. They’re either hiding behind a rock the whole match, or getting shot in the head. Having extra health regen would let them stay with the group and get in position for flanks.


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