Arrows Buffed, Vanguards In Trouble



  • Archers were the underdog class before the patch, but now it is much easier to hit your targets with the increased arrow velocity. With the Heavy Crossbow, hitting a target across the map is quite easy for me. This is most unfortunate for Vanguards, the only class unable to wield a shield. Let’s be honest, their Smoke Pot doesn’t last long enough to protect them from arrows. And they are quite easy to kill, it will usually take one shot from the more powerful ranged weapons. Imagine yourself in a match with good players, and some of them are archers…are you really going to waste your time going Vanguard? I don’t think so. Especially if it’s in an open map, you are mere cannon fodder.

    R.I.P to all Vanguards when the patch hits. This class will simply not be used in professional matches, Knights and Archers only. Yes, I am talking about PROFESSIONAL matches (Usually elimination game mode), how well you did in a pub game once is irrelevant.

    Suggested solution: Give Vanguard 2 smoke pots, and/or make the smoke last much longer.



  • Archers are basically the vanguards biggest weakness.



  • Vanguard is a bit of a niche class right now. Knights do the melee, archers do the ranged fighting, and MAAs are basically the anti-knight.

    Vanguards get smoke pots, pole-arms, and a run speed fast enough to catch a knight but usually not a running archer. Why not just play a knight with more health and higher armour?

    Well, the vanguard is a tricky class. I’ve seen a couple of posts on the suggestion thread where some naive kids ask for a ninja/assassin class. Well, no. That’s what the vanguard does.

    Ninjas in chainmail, you ask? Against MAAs, you have reach. Against knights, you have reach. Against archers, you have dreams. With only reach, dreams, and a not-terrible movement speed to guide you, your job is to get into flanking position or right behind the enemy. In that situation, your reach allows you to start your swing and still hit someone who’s running towards the melee or moving unpredictably while fighting that knight in front of him. Vanguards have to camp the sweet spots where archers cannot hit, bide their time, strike when their enemies are busy, and then run back and hope an archer doesn’t pick them off before they get back to safety.

    Really, this patch changes nothing. People just haven’t quite figured the vanguard out yet.



  • @Funkmaster:

    Really, this patch changes nothing. People just haven’t quite figured the vanguard out yet.

    The OP seems to know what he is doing when playing Vanguard judging by the video he posted in another thread…

    I agree that the class needs an extra smoke pot. And please fix the charge attack, it’s useless against anyone with a brain.



  • I do fine as vanguard, even tho I rarely play it (mostly archer). Knights can have a really hard time against you, maa as well - just grab an axe if they get stabby. If you manage to outmaneuver an archer he is always toast so only those cowardly or highly aware archers will escape but they aren’t your job anyway.
    Still I agree the smokepot could use some slight buff like a CD not ammo based usage or like giving it an extra slot so you can use it without any disadvantage. The charge is pretty useless atm.



  • You might want to consider feinting before using the charge attack. More often than not, you’ll be able to hit.



  • I think it’s mentality problem, because most of the people don’t think in cathegory of a team - it’s “my” kills, my ratio, my weapon, etc. No class should be able to dominate the field and archers are here as a hard counter for two handers (knights included).

    Synergy.

    In battle you are together with other people. As a vanguard with spear you can excel by pointing out the enemy while being hidden behind someone’s else back, this is much harder if you’re alone and enemy knows what he is doing. Vanguards should follow the knights with tower shields and support them in combat and knights should know when to switch their two handed weapon and carry the shield in hand. When knights are advancing behind the shield wall (you can even shield bash an archer without the need to expose yourself) and archers are picking off enemy shooters other classes (like the vanguard) can do their job more efficiently.

    Same goes for archers (and any other class) as well - alone they are rather easy to be killed, but in a group they can be deadly not only by killing enemies, but also by weakening them for frontline troops. People who go into battle alone are not doing it right.



  • Vanguard needs some better gadgets….that’s for sure.
    Halberd is epic…and renders all spears useless.
    2h swords are v. nice too.

    ATM there is few reasons to be a vanguard though…just by logic (still prefer it over knight)

    Though…I hope there will be restrictions on numbers for archers and knights in the future.
    I also think faster arrowveloc. will automatically lead to lowered damage / revised draw time.

    Patience is the best for now :-)



  • Personally I think they are fine and didn’t need a buff. Good players using a bow already own face.



  • the draw time on bows was increased tremendously, that’s a huge factor in balancing them.

    Warbow 0.9 -> 1.4
    longbow 0.7 -> 1.2
    Shortbow 0.5 -> 0.9

    That’s disgusting from a realism standpoint, but hopefully it will bring balance.

    Basically you’ll have to dodge an arrow half as often while they move only bit faster than before.

    But yes, RIP vanguard you poor bastard.



  • People don’t get it. The extra smoke pot won’t do anything because smoke pot is completely worthless in it’s current form. Smoke Pot doesn’t stop an archer from shooting through the smoke to hit you, or lead his shot to get you when you inevitably try to walk out of the radius of smoke pot. Not to mention if you decide to throw the smoke pot at the archer you’re already at the range where it wouldn’t of even mattered.

    It’s a fragile matter because nobody wants a giant field of fucking smoke 24/7 on the battlefield yet to buff smokepot to usefulness you’re pretty much going to have to increase the radius and pretty much the duration.

    To add to this everything besides the MAA class seems rushed and lazily designed, or not clearly thought out.



  • @MUSASHI:

    To add to this everything besides the MAA class seems rushed and lazily designed, or not clearly thought out.

    The only thing rushed and lazily designed are people’s tactics.

    You choose a class without a shield against other classes with throwing weapons and long range weapons in a battle of a dozen on each side. No amount of smoke or archer nerfs is going to change the fact that vanguard is a PURE offensive class. long heavy damage weapons primary, short underutilized fast weapons secondary. These are the tools players choose and then think that they can and should be able to run through an open battlefield swinging as they please. Well shit, go figure the other team picked a class that can hit you from a long way out if you let them. So get behind some fucking cover, zigzag, flank, or get damn good with throwing weapons because the chances of TB removing an entire class seems a little unlikely.



  • I have no problems playing Vanguard in Pubs but that doesn’t mean the mechanics are sound. Getting a good K:D with a class means nothing. As more and more players especially archers get better people are going to realize some of the obvious shortcomings of this game you better believe that.



  • @MUSASHI:

    I have no problems playing Vanguard in Pubs but that doesn’t mean the mechanics are sound. Getting a good K:D with a class means nothing. As more and more players especially archers get better people are going to realize some of the obvious shortcomings of this game you better believe that.

    What’s the shortcoming here? Vanguards don’t get a tower shield strapped to their chest and back?



  • If the enemy team is stacked with Archers, I’ll just switch to knight and mow the archers down with a shield. If you are unable to adapt to the situation and will lose the game if your vanguard approach fails, then you deserved to lose that game. I am predominantly a vanguard player, but if counters (class switching) are available to you to be able to deal with archers, then it’s your loss if you don’t use it.



  • Right? I was playing a couple of TO games where the enemy stacked archers in the throneroom so I just spammed “towershield rush, meet at the gate”, only got about 4 guys with shields, a crossbowman, and a MAA with a buckler; but that was enough to sprint in there and break them up for the rest of the team to sweep in and take the king. (BTW a turtle crossbowman is insanely hard to hit, especially when he’s lower elevation)

    Vanguards face the same issue as the players that seem to flock to them and complain: lack of versatility. They only get a big weapon and a small weapon, but they are some of the best weapons (bugs/exploits don’t count in comparisons). And the players themselves just want to swing those great weapons around without compromise not going knight to shield up or archer to countershoot.



  • @Mike_Effing_Jones:

    @MUSASHI:

    To add to this everything besides the MAA class seems rushed and lazily designed, or not clearly thought out.

    The only thing rushed and lazily designed are people’s tactics.

    You choose a class without a shield against other classes with throwing weapons and long range weapons in a battle of a dozen on each side. No amount of smoke or archer nerfs is going to change the fact that vanguard is a PURE offensive class. long heavy damage weapons primary, short underutilized fast weapons secondary. These are the tools players choose and then think that they can and should be able to run through an open battlefield swinging as they please. Well shit, go figure the other team picked a class that can hit you from a long way out if you let them. So get behind some fucking cover, zigzag, flank, or get damn good with throwing weapons because the chances of TB removing an entire class seems a little unlikely.

    This.
    Once you reach a certain level you won’t have unusually big trouble with anything, I never had a problem with archers as vanguard and everytime I pick this class I think “If archers become your problem, change tactic or switch class” but it never happens. This whole complaint is the inexperienced player speaking.

    @MUSASHI:

    People don’t get it. The extra smoke pot won’t do anything because smoke pot is completely worthless in it’s current form. Smoke Pot doesn’t stop an archer from shooting through the smoke to hit you, or lead his shot to get you when you inevitably try to walk out of the radius of smoke pot. Not to mention if you decide to throw the smoke pot at the archer you’re already at the range where it wouldn’t of even mattered.

    I have learned how to use smokepots and your are wrong. They just need a slight buff but making them impassable for arrows? You know a shield blocks arrows, but it’s about 1/10th-1/15th the size of a smokecloud. And no, crossbowmen don’t have the rate of fire to risk a shot into the grey, and most archers will switch to easier targets, you’re not the only one on the battlefield. Smokepots are very potent actually and stack very well, in case you coordinate some friends or hug an ammostash. Throw them into the enemy meleeline and they will make mistakes they wouldn’t do normally, like taking your charge attack. No archer with half a brain would shoot into a clash with no eyesight whatsoever because he might hit some friends as well. The only point were smoke becomes less effective is a 1v1 vanguard vs archer were nobody esle is around and he spotted you ages ago. HOWEVER this is not your fight- accept it and learn to flank properly.



  • Played vanguard once, got first,easiest class by far. They definitely something to bring them down.

    Constantly get one shotted as a javelin sword n shield archer as well as an MAA.

    Lets not forget that vanguards can attack from behind themselves as well…

    Theyre a great class and totally fit and I understand their design…but something needs to be done and this may very well be the thing thats needed to make them hesitant.



  • @ZorisX:

    Played vanguard once, got first,easiest class by far. They definitely something to bring them down.

    Constantly get one shotted as a javelin sword n shield archer as well as an MAA.

    Lets not forget that vanguards can attack from behind themselves as well…

    Theyre a great class and totally fit and I understand their design…but something needs to be done and this may very well be the thing thats needed to make them hesitant.

    I’m not saying that vanguard is a hard class, but I argue that knight is the easiest by far. A good knight will literally never be able to be beaten by a vanguard 1v1, that’s why all the pro duelists use knights and MAA, albeit MAA needing more skill.



  • Indeed, Vanguards are the superior class for winning pub games. Cutting down waves of sub-par players is easy for any class, but in this regard Vanguards have the highest kill rate. However, I wrote the OP with professional matches in mind, which are mainly played via elimination game mode. When you have seen how much potential an expert archer has, it makes Vanguard pale in comparison. Even more so now that arrows are buffed. It doesn’t matter how tricky you think you are, you have no shield and these guys aren’t going to miss. You are cannon fodder. How well you did in a pub game once is irrelevant. Vanguards ARE in trouble!


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