Feint system inherently slightly flawed + solution



  • So, I think the feinting system is inherently broken and I’ll post a brief explanation why

    The windup and damage for a weapon come right one after the other for each other. By looking down with an overhead (to some extent), and stabs, the damage is applied pretty much immediately after the windup finishes. This means, at least in a comp setting, its pretty much impossible not to fall for a feint up close with fast-ish weapons. There isn’t any time to block after the windup finishes, which means that against a skilled player, you have to fall for the feint because they can feint pretty much all the way up until the damage takes place

    This problem is exaggerated in the sword of war, as it has a long range and a longish windup to feint

    The solution to this would be to separate the feinting time and windup time - make feinting time marginally less than the windup time, so that the other player at least has a theoretical time in which they can successfully block, and not get insta damaged by fast weapons. This should be a slim time however, so that feints retain their usefulness



  • You are one patch late to this discussion :D
    There’s a multiple page thread floating around here which discusses problems and solutions of feinting. Feinting is about guessing and it looks like the devs want to keep it that way. I have to say I like the recent changes.



  • Heh, no I’m talking about the current patch :)

    The randomness might be ok for pub games, but for comp i’d prefer for it to be all about skill. That’s just my personal opinion however



  • It’s already getting easy to block bad feints.



  • It’s a lot better than it was last patch, but I still think it could use some more looking at. We need more gameplay mechanics in general, like kicks being far more useful and harder to execute than they are currently; right now it feels like feints are pretty much the high skill move and the players who are best at feinting deceptively or predicting feints are the best players.

    Still, far better than last patch where you could just spam feints and win more often than not ;)



  • From the feint spammers I’ve played. (Bada,Jest) the majority of them have bad footwork and aren’t used to playing defensively because feint spamming gave them such incredible offense. You can literally beat them by circle strafing and superior spacing.



  • it feels like feints are pretty much the high skill move

    Definitely, I think feints need a slight nerf so that other options become more viable - like clever footwork and trying to get around your enemies block. At the moment as feints stand, you pretty much only have to use the feint system to win



  • I can live with a single move dominating high level play. However, I despise this single move being a guesswork based mechanic. I want skill to triumph in high level play, not the ability to guess correctly on whether a strike is real or not. Unfortunately, as long as feint shares the same animations as normal attack windups, this will never change. The only thing you can really do to diminish its effectiveness is to make it an action you have to commit to or face the consequences, such as a parry, kick, attack, etc, where they all have periods of downtime that people can capitalise on.

    And yes, it’s flawed, because shields eliminate this mechanic entirely from the game. However, I’ll never be seen dead with a shield in this game, they are worse (as in, far more noob friendly/easy mode) than aoc and aoc shields allowed super fast counter-attacks!



  • You can’t eliminate guessing from feints…

    Unfortunately, as long as feint shares the same animations as normal attack windups

    That’s exactly the point, if the stimuli was inherently different then feints simply wouldn’t accomplish what they’re supposed to do.

    If someone is allowed to get into a facehugging offense vs you, you are either playing too defensively or have bad footwork and or bad offense.

    If they run straight in try just throw out stabs and walking/sprinting to the side of their vertical movement. Don’t be reactionary.



  • @MUSASHI:

    You can’t eliminate guessing from feints…

    Unfortunately, as long as feint shares the same animations as normal attack windups

    That’s exactly the point, if the stimuli was inherently different then feints simply wouldn’t accomplish what they’re supposed to do.

    If someone is allowed to get into a facehugging offense vs you, you are either playing too defensively or have bad footwork and or bad offense.

    It’s very easy to facehug someone.



  • The people I facehug effectively tend to be the players that want to sit back and react to what you do. Which is what loses you duels because reacting to their feints at that range is the trap they want you to fall for.



  • That’s exactly the point, if the stimuli was inherently different then feints simply wouldn’t accomplish what they’re supposed to do.

    That’s right, and I’m not suggesting at all changing the stimuli is to way to go, purely because it would require an entire re-think of the feint mechanic. Aside from that fact though, you’re right there’s no way to remove the guessing from feint, we are stuck with it. We can only really diminish its effectiveness and this patch only scratched the surface - dealing with combo feints.



  • it might just be that I am new, but most of the stuff in the tutorial I have never used in a proper battle, I rarely encounter it as well.
    feint is one example

    another is the man at arms dodge thing its easier just to use a sheild

    sheild kick is rarely used as well

    its usually just, I hit you, you block, you hit me, I block, I hit you, too slow, ha ha combo spam, your head fell off



  • To the above poster the players of this game are not even considered “decent” yet. So you’re not going to see optimal play 90% of the time.



  • @MUSASHI:

    From the feint spammers I’ve played. (Bada,Jest) the majority of them have bad footwork and aren’t used to playing defensively because feint spamming gave them such incredible offense. You can literally beat them by circle strafing and superior spacing.

    1+



  • Feints aren’t being used that much in a clan match / competive match. A lot more teamwork, footwork, timming and those skills plays the important part. Sure you can get into a situation where you will use it, that would most likely be in one versus one / more situations, no need to feint while you fight along with teammates.



  • @20k:

    So, I think the feinting system is inherently broken and I’ll post a brief explanation why

    The windup and damage for a weapon come right one after the other for each other. By looking down with an overhead (to some extent), and stabs, the damage is applied pretty much immediately after the windup finishes. This means, at least in a comp setting, its pretty much impossible not to fall for a feint up close with fast-ish weapons. There isn’t any time to block after the windup finishes, which means that against a skilled player, you have to fall for the feint because they can feint pretty much all the way up until the damage takes place

    This problem is exaggerated in the sword of war, as it has a long range and a longish windup to feint

    The solution to this would be to separate the feinting time and windup time - make feinting time marginally less than the windup time, so that the other player at least has a theoretical time in which they can successfully block, and not get insta damaged by fast weapons. This should be a slim time however, so that feints retain their usefulness

    I have made this suggestion before, but it has been shot down by people who aren’t really fully aware of what is been said above. The primary issue is that any attack, (except the stab after the recent patch) that has the windup end inside the enemy model can be made impossible to distinguish between a feinted and a released attack. This means that feints aren’t merely something that you can fall for, but something that can be made impossible to not fall for within the current system.

    The bandaid player solution is to gain distance and flinch the opponent through kicks, which are very quick at the range at which this is generally a problem (close range feints). However, if you’re ending the windup of a 2h sword within an enemy model from a side swing or overhead, then it is quite common to have a longer ranged windup ending inside the enemy model.

    Personally I believe this is why the current solution is not really the best solution for feints, as it only solves the most obvious instance of ending the windup inside the opponent (the stab feint), but not the less obvious but now quite apparent overhead and sideswing feints.

    @wildwulfy:

    Feints aren’t being used that much in a clan match / competive match. A lot more teamwork, footwork, timming and those skills plays the important part. Sure you can get into a situation where you will use it, that would most likely be in one versus one / more situations, no need to feint while you fight along with teammates.

    It is certainly important in competitive duelling, and is also very important once the numbers start thinning in a lts group fight.



  • We are fully aware of the guesswork involved of feints at that distance, but that’s the point. If a player is letting you get into that range for free he deserves to lose.

    Honestly dueling is getting boring because of the lack of things you can do. If you make feints more obvious I might as well quit this game.

    Let me reiterate. OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO GUESS IF IT’S A FEINT.



  • @MUSASHI:

    We are fully aware of the guesswork involved of feints at that distance, but that’s the point. If a player is letting you get into that range for free he deserves to lose.

    Honestly dueling is getting boring because of the lack of things you can do. If you make feints more obvious I might as well quit this game.

    Let me reiterate. OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO GUESS IF IT’S A FEINT.

    Why though?

    Why should the system be probability based rather than being deterministic?

    I know you’re saying that duelling is getting boring because of the lack of things that you can do, but that is precisely because of the feinting system. One of the main competitors of this game, mount and blade warband still has an evolving duelling metagame nearly three years after its release, precisely because of the lack of probabilistic elements. When two players go against each other who are aware of windup/weapon tip mechanics, and are also strong on distance control, then the fight will essentially be based very largely on luck, as the game is being limited by a probabilistic mechanic which relies upon guesswork to defend against.

    I currently exploit this mechanic quite extensively, even on team objective and on the more competitive modes. While it is not the only important thing you need to know, the basic concept of ending your windup inside your opponent can boost your play quite considerably.

    Edit: It is possible to remove guess work from feints, albeit requiring a decent ping to do so. Splitting the animation in to three phases, feintable windup, non-feintable windup and release, rather than just two will eliminate the guess work in blocking it. This is as the above will enable you to block safely during the non-feintable windup phase, which will successfully defend against a feint and an attack that has its windup end within your model. The current patch’s solution of adding the delay to the attacks won’t even be necessary, except maybe for the current stab feint delay.



  • Splitting the animation in to three phases, feintable windup, non-feintable windup and release, rather than just two will eliminate the guess work in blocking it

    This is exactly what i would want - currently there isn’t even a theoretical time in which you can block without them being able to feint, or you being damaged. A good player can simply watch for your block, feint if you block, then stab you. Because you can feint pretty much all the way up until you stab them, there is no way to avoid being stabbed


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