Vanguards and shields



  • So my suggestion is the following: Let vanguards use shields with their spear primaries and with their secondary weapons. I figure since men at arms have buckler->heater and knights get kite->tower, vanguards could fall between that and get a choice between heater and kite.

    There are 2 reasons why I believe this should happen, and they are as follows:

    1. The historical accuracy reason
    Simply google image search for “medieval spearman” and you’ll see a bunch of pictures of guys equipped with spears and shields. In fact, as far as i know, shields were pretty much standard equipment for spearmen back in those days and spearmen WITHOUT shields were a rarity. Pretty much every medieval movie or video game at some point features a battle with a line of spearmen with shields in the front row.

    2. The game balance reason
    At the moment vanguards are easy kills for anyone skilled with his ranged weapons (javelins, bows, crossbows, even throwing axes,) because they’re the only class with no access to a shield. I really don’t see why that is the case, they have no huge advantage to offset this major drawback. Lastly for balance reasons, because of the extra weight, the charge attack could be disabled if the vanguard has a shield (regardless of whether it’s in his hand on on his back), so it’s a tradeoff and not just a free thing.

    So anyway, comment, debate, support or if you disagree please try to explain why you think it’s a bad idea.



  • @Extropy:

    At the moment vanguards are easy kills for anyone skilled with his ranged weapons (javelins, bows, crossbows, even throwing axes,) because they’re the only class with no access to a shield. I really don’t see why that is the case, they have no huge advantage to offset this major drawback.

    How about having the most long ranged melee weapons, which are relatively fast as well. With other words, their 2-handers are the easiest to use (Won’t say best, as opinions may differ). Combine this with having decent health and movement speed and you got yourself the most well-overall balanced class, when it comes to stats alone, out there.

    Vanguard is very easy to pick up and do well with, there’s a reason the majority of people on FFA servers play Vanguard. Archers are the only direct counter to Vanguards (and perhaps very very good MaA’s, but those are rare). By giving them shields you are giving Vanguards an enormous boost in survivability, and in my opinion, this will completely knock the current balance system over.

    By doing this, you’re also making Archers useless, as Vanguards are their prime targets. Knights often use shields and/or it takes a fair amount of hits to take them down. MaA are generally hard to hit due to their speed and dodge. So what will archer be used for then? Countering other archers?

    No, it is good as it is. Vanguards have an edge in melee combat, but are the most susceptible to ranged weaponry.



  • Vanguard are perfect as they are, no reason to unbalance the whole game by boosting a class that already gets the job done.



  • I would agree with your suggestion only if other things were changed as well in the game,like the wooden part of spears or long polearms inflicting damage.This change alone would make vanguards overpowered.The devs would have to rebalance the game once more and if they do it in the future,I hope it’s the last time fixing all issues.



  • @Siegfried:

    How about having the most long ranged melee weapons, which are relatively fast as well. With other words, their 2-handers are the easiest to use (Won’t say best, as opinions may differ). Combine this with having decent health and movement speed and you got yourself the most well-overall balanced class, when it comes to stats alone, out there.

    Well, they have the best melee range, but MaA have speed and dodge and knights have the most hit points and the most damaging weapons, that is balanced. However MaA and knights ALSO have shields and the Vanguard doesn’t, that’s a whole separate issue. And please, “decent health”, there’s barely any difference between vanguard and MaA when you look at the number of hits it takes to kill them with most weapons. And as for their 2-handers being the easiest to use, which is arguable in itself but it doesn’t matter, I’m not suggesting they get shields with 2 handed swords and polearms, only with spears, and spears are definitely not easy to use correctly.

    @Siegfried:

    Vanguard is very easy to pick up and do well with, there’s a reason the majority of people on FFA servers play Vanguard.

    Yeah and that reason is they can just run in, madly swing and get kills. Using vanguard weapons correctly in a team based game mode, aka NOT swinging like a maniac and killing more teammates than enemies is definitely not easy. And seriously, FFA should not matter in any discussion about game balance.

    @Siegfried:

    Archers are the only direct counter to Vanguards (and perhaps very very good MaA’s, but those are rare). By giving them shields you are giving Vanguards an enormous boost in survivability, and in my opinion, this will completely knock the current balance system over.

    I see, archers are a direct counter to vanguards, therefore the game has a rock paper scissors balance system where each class has one class it counters and one class that counters it? So who exactly counters knights and men at arms then? And who do vanguards counter? Or maybe nobody has a direct counter except vanguards and that’s somehow fair and balanced?

    @Siegfried:

    By doing this, you’re also making Archers useless, as Vanguards are their prime targets. Knights often use shields and/or it takes a fair amount of hits to take them down. MaA are generally hard to hit due to their speed and dodge. So what will archer be used for then? Countering other archers?

    I mostly play knight and always whip out my kite shield when running at an archer, yet I’ve still been hit and killed with my shield up by skilled archers many times. And again, you’re saying the only purpose of the archer is to kill vanguards? So what’s the purpose of the other classes, and why is the vanguard the only class that has another class dedicated to killing it?

    @Siegfried:

    No, it is good as it is. Vanguards have an edge in melee combat, but are the most susceptible to ranged weaponry.

    “Vanguards have an edge in melee combat” is such a blanket statement, I can’t really say anything to it other than “no they do not”. The range of their weapons is useful only when farming people with their backs turned in FFA and against bad players who don’t know how to counter it. Everyone else will be facehugging and owning the vanguard in no time flat. Personally, as I said, I mostly play knight and vanguard is by far the easiest class for me to kill.



  • I like the VG’s place as a shieldless twohander-only class. But I also like the idea of a high reach offensive class with a shield - not the VG, a new class. In fact I just posted in another thread about it.

    @SlyGoat:

    A long range shield user between Knight and Vanguard (possibly called a Mainguard?) - wields modified one-handed polearms and spears, as well as the Knight’s bastard swords modified to be slightly shorter and with one-handed grips. Their weapons are generally quicker but weaker than the longer variety. Access to Heater and Kite shields, as well as the Aspis which is a larger buckler; larger and lighter weight than a kite shield, but bleeds stamina heavily when blocking. Class special “Shield Rush” - while in full sprint, putting your shield up causes you to move faster, but your turn speed is restricted heavily (even more so than when swinging a weapon), and you lose stamina rapidly. Pressing the shove key while shield charging does a more powerful shield bash which actually inflicts some real damage (not huge; about 25) along with being unblockable - of course if the enemy sees you coming, they can avoid it because of the low turn rate, and you have to be in full sprint to execute it much like a VG charge attack. Mainguards also consume less stamina than other classes to perform shoves, but they lack the Knight’s reduced stamina from blocking - making them very offensive shield users, which is their niche.

    As for the VG themselves - their problem is a lot of maps lack cover for them to take advantage of to get around archers in combination with smoke pots being very weak.

    Perhaps smoke pots instead of being weird smoke grenade things would be large bursts of smoke that spread rapidly and only last a few seconds. Then the VG could be given several of them to throw while he runs and create rapid but short lasting cover as he goes. Stick on some other tertiary weapon alternatives as well instead of the throwing knives and axes that other classes already have. Maybe caltrops or something.



  • The fun of playing an vanguard is knowing, with 90% accuracy, that you will die from an arrow.



  • There’s already too many sissies using shields. <–-this

    I say remove shields. They are for sissies. (joking about the removing part, serious about sissies)

    Buff maul damage. (just enough to 1-shot knight with headshot)

    Nerf all 1h damage. (1h should do significantly less damage than 2h)

    Buff kicks. (would be awesome)