The Peltast - Javelineer Rework Discussion



  • Unless I’m off my rocker, I’ve heard the Javelineer was slated for a rework according to a dev. This may or may not the case, but regardless, I’d like to open a discussion on more radical overhauls of the javelineer beyond mere number tweaks. This thread is to explore new mechanics to enhance the javelineer’s gameplay and bring it more in line with the other classes.

    As a preface: when I heard about Chivalry, I was hoping they would make some steps forward from AoC. They did, and this was pleasing. One thing in particular I was looking forward to was the javelineer class. By mechanics, it was quite improved from the old class, being able to throw from melee stance with buckler out is a nice asset.

    However, to be honest, I was hoping the class would be shifted to the Man-at-Arms. It made more sense to me; a peltast ought to be fast and competent in melee while lightly armored. However, what’s done is done, and giving the archer a mere two weapons with the MaA four (among other issues) likely wouldn’t work.

    The class currently suffers from a few problems. It’s meant to be a hybrid class, but like many hybrids in many games, it falters in both roles to the point of not being worth it. Hybrids generally need to bring more utility to be successful, and the javelineer has none of that.

    Being an archer, the class hasn’t the speed or armor to keep up with other melee classes. But this is a class that demands speed, constantly flanking around shields, running back for more precious ammo, and disengaging from unfavorable fights.

    The javelin itself offers mediocre range and mediocre damage in its melee attack. Which would be fine, and it makes sense; javelins were never meant to excel in hand-to-hand combat. But the javelineer only has access to secondary weapons, which aren’t terribly powerful, nor are they unique.

    Suggestion: Give the Javelineer a proper spear, aside from the javelins. A one-handed spear, shorter than the Vanguard’s spear, but still more able than the current javelins. This would have the effect of giving the class a choice of which to use in melee combat. Using the javelin in melee combat will give you the flexibility to throw whenever you need to, while the spear is the definitive choice for combat. I would think secondary weapons remain, as does the shield, but this runs into the problem of how to assign them to numbers and unlock slots.

    You could put the javelins as “ammo types” like how arrows work now. You could pair up the spear and buckler so they come with each other, putting javelins in the special slot. You could put the spear as another secondary choice for just the javelineer.

    There are a few ways to go about this. I do believe the class can be brought up to snuff by number tweaks (touching up animations, giving more damage/range/ammo/whatever). But I find a proper rework more interesting, and I’m sure others can come up with neat ideas, too.

    Something else to consider: An entirely new class, The Peltast, who would be given the javelin as well as a line of slings, and possibly other throwing weapons (knives/axes). This depends on the addition of Slings, though, and generally requires even more work. But slings are cool, and ought to be in more games, I think.



  • Peltast has a very specific meaning as far as a potential class goes. I think a new class which is half archer half MaA could be simply called a “Skirmisher”. And I have to say, it does seem to me like the one thing missing from the current available classes. I think that would be the ideal thing, if it’s at all feasible, as it would not only help balance out javelins and make them fill their intended role better, it would also help for future weapon additions like the rumored sling.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Peltast has a very specific meaning as far as a potential class goes. I think a new class which is half archer half MaA could be simply called a “Skirmisher”. And I have to say, it does seem to me like the one thing missing from the current available classes. I think that would be the ideal thing, if it’s at all feasible, as it would not only help balance out javelins and make them fill their intended role better, it would also help for future weapon additions like the rumored sling.

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/peltast

    Forgive me if it seems antagonistic of me to point out; Peltasts just referred to skirmishing light infantry. But, that’s just a name, a name’s a name, and you’re probably right when it comes to popular perception (assuming the average person even knows what a Peltast is).

    It’s actually a possibility of letting archers keep javelins; both classes would have it, while the Skirmisher would get a Spear and better stats, the archer-javelineer would get more javelins. Or something.

    I think a Skirmisher class having Javelins, Slings, and Darts as primary weapons would be interesting to see. The Darts line would have Darts, Throwing Knives and Throwing Axes as an unlock tree. Secondarily, they get spears, light swords (maybe short sword+broad dagger+broadsword) or something else. For special, they could have buckler or a kite shield.

    This is a little problematic, though. Ideally, I’d like to see a Skirmisher having a spear, buckler, short sword, and javelins. The current set-up doesn’t quite harbor that, unless something was paired (like spear+javelin.)

    As for stats, they’d likely be similar to MaA. They’d lack dodging, but their special ability would be… gee, I don’t really know. Maybe someone else could think of that. It’d probably be related to agility, maybe something with sprinting.



  • Javelineer is already a very strong class don’t need improvement



  • @shayologo:

    Javelineer is already a very strong class don’t need improvement

    Could you give your reasoning, please? A lot of people I’ve spoken with agree the javelineer has problems.

    As I said in the original post, the class is a hybrid, weaker in ranged and melee combat, but doesn’t offer the utility to justify a pick over another given class. Its performance is also hampered by sluggish animations and poor stats.

    It doesn’t have the armor or mobility to give it the survivability it needs to be as close as it needs to get the job done to the extent other classes can manage.

    In terms of weapons, thrown javelins do comparable damage to other ranged weapons, with much less ammo (and thereby far less potential for destructive capability) and are very difficult to hit with due to their arc and missile speed. The melee javelin suffers from poor range and damage (which are justified, no less), and when coupled with the class’s poor movement and armor, make him a liability in a scrap.

    In other words, the javelineer is bad because of a variety of factors. A rework seeks to address all of them, and give it some synergy.

    But if you disagree, perhaps you know something I’ve missed.



  • I’ve been playing a bit of javelineer again recently, and concluded that they aren’t in as bad a spot as I thought they were.

    They are actually pretty safe for how much damage they can deal. Standard javelins deal as much damage as a crossbow, but I don’t need to turn around and stand completely still for three seconds to grab another javelin. I also get a shield that can block with while having a ranged weapon out, allowing me to quickly switch between ranged attacks and a melee/ranged defense. Low ammo count can be managed by picking up missed javelins off the ground.

    The melee attacks of the javelin aren’t strong; they aren’t supposed to be. If a full health enemy attacks me in melee, I’m better off switching to a secondary. That said, the javelin does have an extra advantage because it has a melee attack on a primarily ranged weapon. Think of all the times you get killed with a bow or crossbow because you can’t switch to your secondary in time, or because you thought it was safe to switch to your ranged weapon (low hp enemy running away from you) but it actually wasn’t (he turns around suddenly as you take out your bow). That never happens with a javelin. Imagine being able to finish off a bloodied knight by hitting him on the head with your crossbow, then immediately shooting said crossbow for another kill at a distance. Yeah.

    The problem with javelins is, as Nikolai said, they have slow projectile speed and range, making them short-range attacks only, which gets me into melee fights far more often than other archers. However, I am finding more and more that my cudgel + buckler can actually hold their own against any other class. I can’t dodge like MAA, but I deal bonus damage from behind while having similar resistance to attacks (Archers take 100% damage from slash, 90% from pierce, 80% from blunt, on average 90% damage. MAA takes 85% damage from everything, only 5% better). I can’t speak for other archer secondaries, but the cudgel seems quite strong for it’s speed, and can down most in 2-3 quick hits. Knights take 4 at most. I never run from fights anymore, in fact once out of javelins I tend to act like a MAA and try to flank and kill from behind, sometimes even pushing the objective if no one else is. The shield really makes it possible since you don’t instantly die to feints or other archers.



  • @RushSecond:

    snip

    It’s true. The Javelineer isn’t useless, and has strong points. I don’t think anyone will deny that. The main point of contention is that the Javelineer just isn’t as good as other options.

    The ability to strike at range and be prepared for a melee is mitigated by the horrendous throw wind-up and reload animations. If these were addressed, the class’ strengths would shine more, but it’s still plagued with other problems.

    And really, the biggest argument for a new class is essentially “It’s cool.” It’d add Something to the game, and pave the way for a unique role and new weapons (i.e. the sling).


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