Feinting frustration



  • Ok, I just came from a duel server EXTREMELY frustrated because right now feinting is all that´s killing me. Let me first say that I dont think feinting is bad. It is an interesting mechanic and it spices up the game.
    Like Shara in his video said: feinting gets more effective the closer you are to your opponent. That is absolutely true because when you are face-hugging someone you can´t see what he´s doing with his weapon. I know I should keep my distance against such players but what can you do when it happens??

    We all had to learn to see the attack animation and then react with a parry. Now I have to relearn basically ALL the timings of parries of ALL the weapons.

    Let me describe the state of attacks and reaction of a player like this:

    Attack begins <––x----> Point of no return <----y-----> Attack hits

    X represents the maximum time after which you can still cancel your attack (feint). Y stands for the time after you passed the point of no return and attack hits something. If you try to cancel the attack after the point of no return it won´t be possible.
    This basically means that we have to learn where exactly is the point of no return and parry ONLY after it.

    The scary question now is: when it comes to the 1-handed weapons what if the x is smaller than 0.2s which the shortest human reaction time that can be achieved by hard practicing??? Any reactions faster than 0.2s are taken as random guesses or luck generally.

    My questions for the community are:

    1. How to practice distinguishing feints
    2. How to differentiate feints from fast 1-handers
    3. Are there any tips that might help: bigger screen, higher details, less / more FOV etc.

    One question for the developers:

    1. What if you are trying to force impossible from the players


  • Feints are a controversial topic on these forums because it is a hugely guesswork based mechanic and some like the fact that guesswork exists in a ‘skill based’ game, whilst others don’t. Unfortunately, the only tip I can offer you is to backpedal as much as you possibly can against a known feinter, and only attempt to get in range once you feel you can land an attack without them being able to block (such as during their recovery if they miss, but really good players will rarely miss and they will also rarely feint out of range too, which doesn’t help), and I fully appreciate it’s not that easy at all, especially with the Knight class; MAA does have it slightly easier with the highest backpedal speed + dodges, and Vanguard is roughly in the middle.



  • I have had the opportunity to duel some very good players and sometimes I come out on top, sometimes I don’t. But, I can safely say that I feel your pain.

    1.)
    The hardest to counter feints are done as close to the point of no return as possible. It forces a guessing game where a wrong guess means certain doom. From my experience, it is not always best to stay so defensive. If you believe your opponent is going to feint, use footwork to move out of the line of fire and attack. Done correctly, this can be very effective against a habitual feinter. This can put you into a more offensive role.

    The thing about feints is panic. You may not realize it’s happening, but when that player pretends to attack, you are thinking defense. Switching it up and going offensive changes these roles. Follow up that attack with a combo. Feint that combo. You see the other player has now been put into a panic situation. With a backfired feint, he has taken a direct (hopefully powerful) hit. You’re now leading up a combo and he’s thinking he’s getting hit a second time (bad news bears). You feint during windup of your second attack and have superiority to land very good hits (use a different attack than the one you feinted so his parry direction will be off) and combo again, (possibly feint again) and attack. Remember to be changing the type of attacks you’re using. This will effect the timing and speed. All of these factors will ultimately confuse your enemy into a parry spamming mode (panic).

    Now that I’ve hopefully accurately described the defensive panic that sets in, I suggest an answer for number 1 to be patience and calm. Be observant and alert, but remain calm. Try not to assume which hit he will try to make as he could just feint and attack with an alternative move with different timing.

    2.)
    Honestly, I don’t know what to say except for footwork footwork footwork. Properly done footwork will keep you out of the way if you miss a parry. Just remember that these fast weapons have lowered reach and you don’t need to be too far to created a missed hit (you can also REALLY take advantage of that missed hit). Also, quick jabs to flinch will help a lot. The mace stab does very little damage, but boy is it quick and done during windup will cause a flinch. This can also help you reverse roles and go offensive for a short while.

    I’ve tried to cover what I can in the text above. Sorry for the longevity and I hope it helps. Good luck out there.



  • Well feint combined with the instant hit-after-windup overhead literally creates a guessing game where, combined with the lag, you have almost no time to react. The looking down/mousedrag overhead also eliminates the slowness of a lot of weapons making something like the dane axe (whos hitboxes also seem longer than the model) very hard to escape from. Once the arm moves forward you’re going to get hit, which brings up another reason why the overhead feint is so devestating: You can’t even react to the arm going forward because that’s what the feint cancel animation is! That combined with the instant overhead pretty much means you have to guess, and it’s not in your favor. Some of the stabs have something like this but not as bad as the overhead animation.

    You pretty much have less than half a second to think whether it’s a feint or not and to properly react in such a short timeframe seems pretty impossible so you just have to guess.

    It’s like UMVC3 Zero’s incoming character mixup except in chiv you can do it all the time. Granted the classes have some ways of dealing with it like side/backdodging although if he did feint he can just run forward and start it all over again. Knights could possibly go for the parry recovery hittrade as well.



  • This is why I suggested putting the limit on the window where feint is allowed. You should not be able to feint at the last moment before the windup ends. The cooldown on the feints absolutely did nothing except it fixed stab combo or overhead combo exploits.

    Human reaction time is roughly 200 ms. And that’s talking about atheletes.

    If a weapon has windup time of 400ms, then you shouldn’t be allowed to feint at 399ms of the windup. You should only be allowed to feint by 200ms or 300ms of the windup. (For example)



  • I like it. It makes the game more about awareness of your opponent, his patterns, and game theory type strategy. It adds an element of chance, sure, but just like in poker your skill in reading your opponent, and using better strategies than him, is what will prevail.
    At any rate, feinting has been changed with windup speeds etc so you can’t really spam it anymore.



  • Back pedaling isn’t the only thing you can do if they get all up in your grill, you can also kick them. It’s one of the most easily forgoten mechanic in this game yet the most useful one to create range.

    What I noticed about feinters is that they will usually go for a panic attack if you manage to push them out of their optimal feinting range. just let them swing a miss and then close in for a killing blow.



  • If you know someone approaching you might feint, kicking/shield bashing them as they approach can counter it. The rest is up to you. Remember, defense is harder, offense is easy if you know stuff. Practise mad swings of your camera to the left or right if they’re point blank strafe swinging or poking.



  • I see this has turned into a very interesting topic. Please comment also a bit on the 3rd point I mentioned at start. My game is running roughly on 20-45 FPS most of the time and in team fights when swinging around I need to see clearly around myself. But unfortunately, the screen is always blurry and I end up not a seeing a thing…

    Now I also want everyone here to imagine playing the game without the feinting mechanic!
    Sure, one original mechanic would be gone but think about the gameplay, how would it look like. Perhaps more reliable, relaxed, truly team based. Orrrr, perhaps the game experience would remain the same…:)



  • Use a shield?



  • Feints are fine. The biggest problem is lag causing various timing issues. People with high pings tend to hit you way before their animation does. Essentially if you don’t block right as they are swinging, you aren’t going to block it. This in turn makes it extremely hard to deal with someone feinting because waiting to see if it is a feint can be risky against higher ping people.



  • Lovely thread.

    Also I like the risk reward of 50/50 mixups with feints at close range, I would just suggest consciously trying to parry at the very last moment before you get hit and getting used to feinting out of attacks into blocks. Duel servers are great for this or finding an equally competitive friend to do parrying practice drills with :P.



  • I don’t find feints to be too bad since the cooldown was added to them. The trick is you have to play aggressively - and this is true for pretty much all situations, not just against someone who feints a lot. If you play too defensively you aren’t going to get anywhere. Just waiting for the other guy to make a move and then reacting to it leaves you vulnerable to a lot of different tricks, feinting just being the biggest of them.



  • If you are up against a feinter, think like a noob

    SWING SWING SWING - SWING LIKE A MADMAN!

    Defending against a feinter is purely by chance unless you have a shield, so get in there and just attack.



  • @bada:

    I have had the opportunity to duel some very good players and sometimes I come out on top, sometimes I don’t. But, I can safely say that I feel your pain.

    1.)
    The hardest to counter feints are done as close to the point of no return as possible. It forces a guessing game where a wrong guess means certain doom. From my experience, it is not always best to stay so defensive. If you believe your opponent is going to feint, use footwork to move out of the line of fire and attack. Done correctly, this can be very effective against a habitual feinter. This can put you into a more offensive role.

    The thing about feints is panic. You may not realize it’s happening, but when that player pretends to attack, you are thinking defense. Switching it up and going offensive changes these roles. Follow up that attack with a combo. Feint that combo. You see the other player has now been put into a panic situation. With a backfired feint, he has taken a direct (hopefully powerful) hit. You’re now leading up a combo and he’s thinking he’s getting hit a second time (bad news bears). You feint during windup of your second attack and have superiority to land very good hits (use a different attack than the one you feinted so his parry direction will be off) and combo again, (possibly feint again) and attack. Remember to be changing the type of attacks you’re using. This will effect the timing and speed. All of these factors will ultimately confuse your enemy into a parry spamming mode (panic).

    Now that I’ve hopefully accurately described the defensive panic that sets in, I suggest an answer for number 1 to be patience and calm. Be observant and alert, but remain calm. Try not to assume which hit he will try to make as he could just feint and attack with an alternative move with different timing.

    2.)
    Honestly, I don’t know what to say except for footwork footwork footwork. Properly done footwork will keep you out of the way if you miss a parry. Just remember that these fast weapons have lowered reach and you don’t need to be too far to created a missed hit (you can also REALLY take advantage of that missed hit). Also, quick jabs to flinch will help a lot. The mace stab does very little damage, but boy is it quick and done during windup will cause a flinch. This can also help you reverse roles and go offensive for a short while.

    I’ve tried to cover what I can in the text above. Sorry for the longevity and I hope it helps. Good luck out there.

    This guys looks like he knows what he’s on about!



  • @SinerAthin:

    If you are up against a feinter, think like a noob

    SWING SWING SWING - SWING LIKE A MADMAN!

    Defending against a feinter is purely by chance unless you have a shield, so get in there and just attack.

    Yep. Feinting only works against a guy who is trying to parry. Pull out your fastest weapon and just keep swinging.



  • Feints are fine for a team based game. They suck for duels.



  • @UnknownXV:

    Feints are fine for a team based game. They suck for duels.

    This is true.



  • @UnknownXV:

    Feints are fine for a team based game. They suck for duels.

    Profoundly disagree, at least from personal experience. We use feints a lot less in clan wars than we do in duels because it’s more about ganging and killing fast. The feints don’t work vs the slash spammers though, I’ll give you that one, they just refuse to block completely, lol.



  • @SlyGoat:

    I don’t find feints to be too bad since the cooldown was added to them. The trick is you have to play aggressively - and this is true for pretty much all situations, not just against someone who feints a lot. If you play too defensively you aren’t going to get anywhere. Just waiting for the other guy to make a move and then reacting to it leaves you vulnerable to a lot of different tricks, feinting just being the biggest of them.

    I am not an aggressive player. The game should not cater to one single playstyle. Be aggressive or die.

    An I win button that forces a guesswork game is not fun, it’s not skill based. In a team game, sure; it’s chaotic and not meant to be a fair fight. but in a proper duel, using feints is a very dirty cheap tactic. I make a point not to feint while in a duel.

    I think the most important point is that it’s simply not fun in the context of such a skillful game.

    @Martin:

    @UnknownXV:

    Feints are fine for a team based game. They suck for duels.

    Profoundly disagree, at least from personal experience. We use feints a lot less in clan wars than we do in duels because it’s more about ganging and killing fast. The feints don’t work vs the slash spammers though, I’ll give you that one, they just refuse to block completely, lol.

    I didn’t say when you use them most, I said it makes logical sense to allow them in team based games where the point is not to be fair. In duels, the point is honor, so being fair makes sense; thus feints don’t fit.


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