Swing trace abuse.



  • One of the “exploits” in AoC currently is people taking advantage of the swing trace system. The swing arc moves realisticly and a right clockwise arced swing will hit things on the left quicker then the right. The problem is people abuse that, by aiming right of a player, then proceeding to swing, so that the player is hit at the very start of the swing trace. This deals full damage even though IRL the attack would not have proper momentum, and denies the enemy player vital time to react. With vertical swings, players will aim downward to achieve the same effect. IE: A heavy knight starts off looking at a player’s head, clicks to start the vertical swing, and the instant it has finished “winding up” he rapidly looks down to get the instant hit. The same basic of techniques can also be used to circumvent parries to an extent.(Looking up delays your attack hitting slightly, allowing time for a parry to enter it’s vulnerable period).

    There are some possible solutions for these counter-intuitive techniques that take away from the immersion of the game.

    -Simply remove some of the swing traces at the beginning of the swing to compensate(swingtraces or whatever system you guys are using for UDK)
    -Make swings perform quick from start of damage detection to the end of it, but increase wind up period to compensate. This would limit the advantages of abusing the system.
    -Beginning swing traces do significantly less damage then normal.
    -Perform two hit tests, the first does a instantaneous “arc” for determining damage, a second continuum of swing traces is -performed to determine visual feedback to prevent visual inconsistencies if only the first method was used.
    -Attacks lock view to an extent. In this system horizontal attack would make severely inhibit x axis directional looking, and vertical swings do the same for y axis looking.(As noticed in CR3 betas the horizontal restrictions help limit the swing,180,swing as well).
    -some combination of the above?

    comments?


  • Developer

    There are many issues that have been addressed simply due to the different methods we are using in Chivalry for the hit detection but the element that pertains strongest to the issues you have listed here directly would be simulated weapon weight. That is, the speed at which you can manipulate the path of your weapon during a swing is going to be controlled via the weight that is assigned to that weapon, this will reduce players ability to abuse the swingtraces very significantly and will nullify the effects of simply maxing out your sensitivity to abuse the system further.



  • I’m sure that the effective yaw limit(“weapon weight”) will help reduce players 180ing, but how does it pertain to aiming so your swing starts on the player as opposed to swinging into him?



  • What you have just said is awesome Tibberius, really cool stuff ! 8-)



  • Nothing plows my gaming experience into the ground like someone abusing the swing system. You touched briefly on one of the most flagrant (though clever) abuses - that is, beginning a stab with the halberd while running away from the opponent, then turning a 180 at the last second in order to impale him by surprise.

    Again, this is clever, but absolutely ridiculous as far as physics are concerned. I’ve learned to compensate by parrying as they prepare to turn, which is equally dubious, but it often works.

    The system mentioned by Tibberius is much preferable.



  • Slight necro, but this is the biggest problem with AoC currently.

    It simply destroys the fun of the game. I think it’s on par with wallhackers in Shooters - in terms of annoyance. You either do it too, or you simply get obliterated.

    Fixing the hit detection (as in making it nearly un-abusable) is the most important aspect of the new game, imo.



  • Yea although I kinda used this so called exploit too as all of the old players, I agree it’s ridiculous, and I believe it was more the fault of the movement system than the swing tracing system.



  • I didn’t really read everything, but people also tend to go forward when the attack begins and backwards right away, as I noticed it makes the trace lag a bit and look like hes hitting you from very far, hate those nub slashers who tend to do that :(



  • Does it not also help with the stab if you move backwards when you are stabbing from close range you can realign the attack if it initially misses. The time margin to do this in is relatively narrow but it did help. Now that they no longer have to manually draw the swing traces do you think it will mean that they will be perfect or will we get an error of another nature. Will it only count the initial point of fire, so say if I aim for the head will it hit before completing the animation and what happens if a team mate steps in the path and I then attempt to deliberately miss which am sure everyone has done at one point or another.



  • Lol more tk’s!


  • Developer

    The hit detection system will accurately track the position of the weapon regardless of the time of the attack, its your responsibility to ensure the weapon lands where you wish in real time.



  • So it will work like it does in age of chivalry but be far more accurate since you don’t have to draw each swing trace by hand?



  • In Age of Chivalry, the swing trace system couldn’t care less where the weapon was as each trace was manually drawn based on a given angle and trace length. In Chivalry, it entirely matters where your weapon is, as swing traces are produced from the exact weapon position at the time of drawing each trace every decisecond or so. So simply, yes, far more accurate ;)



  • Sounds yummy.



  • I like the sounds of the swing traces, but there is still the question of preventing “gamey” tactics. Weapon weight(through yaw limit) will fix anything horizontally movement related, but how will vertical aim abuse(again, aiming down so you are looking at the floor to hit quicker with an over head) be dealt with?



  • Yep the movesystem’s fault^^


  • Developer

    Striker, you ask a simple question with a complicated answer… Let me try to brake it down to the basics anyway. In aoc each swing was just 1 animation, which consisted of the player winding up, following through and then returning to idle. In Chivalry, we have broken this up into 4 animations, which are windup, windupidle(ready to strike), attack (the actual swing through) and recovery (returning to idle). This means that the window to manipulate your mouse to “abuse swing traces vertically” is much smaller in Chivalry. That’s not even mentioning the fact that the swings in Chivalry will be significantly faster in general than in aoc so these two things should help to prevent most of the former issues with vertical swingtrace abuse.



  • Hm. Interesting. Does that mean you can hold your attack back for an epic attack instead of click and all those motions happen?



  • @Tibberius:

    Striker, you ask a simple question with a complicated answer… Let me try to brake it down to the basics anyway. In aoc each swing was just 1 animation, which consisted of the player winding up, following through and then returning to idle. In Chivalry, we have broken this up into 4 animations, which are windup, windupidle(ready to strike), attack (the actual swing through) and recovery (returning to idle). This means that the window to manipulate your mouse to “abuse swing traces vertically” is much smaller in Chivalry. That’s not even mentioning the fact that the swings in Chivalry will be significantly faster in general than in aoc so these two things should help to prevent most of the former issues with vertical swingtrace abuse.

    Yum yum yum.


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