Stamina shortage is a problem



  • I generally like the idea of having to watch your stamina but too often it is the only reason I will most certainly die and can do nothing about it.

    I’m playing knight with 2h and I often use a combination of combos, kicks and jumps. That causes me to be pretty low on stamina after an initial attack. However it’s fine as long as I have the opportunity to go back behind friendly lines and recover.

    When I’m alone against several enemies I’m really unlikely to get out of there alive and that’s not because of skill but stamina. After parrying some enemy blows I’ve run out of stamina and can literally do nothing except of further parrying.

    I would well know how to trick them so I can kill one after another but stamina prevents me from it.

    That’s really frustrating. I want the game to be fully skill-dependend which right now it’s not.
    Of course you could argue that watching my stamina bar and relying on help is part of the skill the game demands but actually I feel it’s not that fun anymore.

    The game should allow you to be the one guy who fights his way through half of the enemy team if he’s good enough.

    tl;dr:
    So, I would suggest to give the player more stamina or let it regain faster.

    Sometimes me and my opponent stand right there face to face both waiting to catch a breath before attacking each other. That tends to be a bit tragicomical :?



  • That’s so true, I’ve posted this many times before the patch actually went live.

    Stamina was fine the way it used to be.

    I mentioned multiple examples of other games where stamina caused a certain low of skillcapping. Stamina tweaking needs to be done in baby-steps.
    So I’d love to have more stamina available, well not neccessarily this, but if the enemy isn’t able to keep up the pressure faster regen should solve this problem instead of getting slowly zerged down, because of the skillcapped-stamina.



  • Just because your stamina is low or empty doesn’t mean that you are dead, just puts you to an disadvantage over your opponent, and you can’t use special moves like combo, cancel attacks, feints, jumps, kicks and dodge. You are still able to sprint and attack once, so your fighting ability is still there, and there will always be a small gap of breathing room between each fights and even during one, unless you or your opponent is max aggresive. I think the stamina is fine now, atleast it doesn’t reduce damage like it did back in AoC, speaking of that, I’d love to see you all average and decent players of chivalry try out Age of Chivalry.



  • @wildwulfy:

    Just because your stamina is low or empty doesn’t mean that you are dead, just puts you to an disadvantage over your opponent, and you can’t use special moves like combo, cancel attacks, feints, jumps, kicks and dodge. You are still able to sprint and attack once, so your fighting ability is still there, and there will always be a small gap of breathing room between each fights and even during one, unless you or your opponent is max aggresive. I think the stamina is fine now, atleast it doesn’t reduce damage like it did back in AoC, speaking of that, I’d love to see you all average and decent players of chivalry try out Age of Chivalry.

    I did about three years ago, I got my ass handed to me. :jrazz:



  • @wildwulfy:

    Just because your stamina is low or empty doesn’t mean that you are dead, just puts you to an disadvantage over your opponent, and you can’t use special moves like combo, cancel attacks, feints, jumps, kicks and dodge. You are still able to sprint and attack once, so your fighting ability is still there, and there will always be a small gap of breathing room between each fights and even during one, unless you or your opponent is max aggresive.

    The gap is really small… When there are 3 to 4 enemies around you and your stamina has run out you have 2 options:
    1. parry incoming strikes
    2. perform single attacks every few seconds

    And this is not enough to get rid of multiple enemies. Combos, feints and most of em all kicks are so essential in a situation like this.

    What I would do in that case:
    Face one enemy and pretend to fight him. Then kick him away and shortly after that do an overhead towards another opponent, followed by a combo move towards another one.

    I could do very well, and in Mount&Blade Warband and actually prefered fighting off multiple enemies instead of dueling it out because it’s easier to trick people who feel safe in the situation rather than having a fully concentrated opponent.

    I just wish Chivalry would be more like that… Faster stamina regeneration could actually do it.



  • For what it’s worth, here’s my take on the stamina issue.

    Since the patch, I’ve gradually had to take more and more notice of my stamina and how much of it is eaten up by certain attacks and actions. It’s no longer something I can ignore the majority of the time and it does force me to look at engagements differently, especially with certain setups. Skilled tactics that utilize feints, combos and kicks are punished pretty hard by the new stamina levels, especially if you’re an aggressive player, and in this case, I consider it a negative.

    However, anybody who watched episode 6 from the first season of Game of Thrones should know there’s another side to this coin. Tearing your opponent down through stamina drain is now a viable tactic. Defensive players can now tire there aggressive opponents by back-peddaling and being smart about when to engage. The increased stamina loss for completely missing a swing, further demonstrates that this is a tactic Torn Banner wanted to see viable.

    This does however prevent very skilled players from engaging multiple enemies in gang-bang situations, which is also unfortunate, because I myself would much rather see skill take prevalence over a constant barrage of messy swings.

    All in all, I can work with the current system and I’ll be able to deal with it if it remains the same, but I would have no objection to a middle of the road compromise between what we have now and what we had previously.



  • There are definitely a few things that I don’t like about the current implementation of stamina. For example, I don’t like the sweeping distinction between onehanders and twohanders as of the last big patch. I feel like there should be some middle ground where heavy onehanders and light twohanders fall in; instead of 10 stamina loss for missing with all onehanders and 20 for all twohanders, some weapons - for example, Warhammer, Knight swords (in either one or two hands), Bearded Axe, Claymore, Fork and Billhook, and possibly the War Axe and Morning Star - should cost 15.

    Stamina cost of comboing might also need looking at, and I’d like to see attacks able to combo directly into parries so you don’t have to expend a huge amount of stamina by combo feinting into a parry, which can make it really difficult to fight multiple opponents; not to mention combo-feint-parry is an extremely effective tactic that can save your life a lot of the time but isn’t an intuitive or explained mechanic.



  • @HEXEN:

    However, anybody who watched episode 6 from the first season of Game of Thrones should know there’s another side to this coin. Tearing your opponent down through stamina drain is now a viable tactic. Defensive players can now tire there aggressive opponents by back-peddaling and being smart about when to engage. The increased stamina loss for completely missing a swing, further demonstrates that this is a tactic Torn Banner wanted to see viable.

    And I agree. Mindless combo spamming should have a downside and smart dodging should pay off.

    I think faster stamina regen would be a good middle ground. If you’re spamming like nuts you’re getting out of breath and can’t simply go on. But when you need stamina to fight off multiple enemies it shouldn’t require you to rest as long as it currently is…
    Problem is even if I stay there and do nothing in hope of my stamina to get back some smartass will attack me and I have to parry which costs me stamina again. There’s no way to get out of this vicious circle.



  • @HEXEN:

    For what it’s worth, here’s my take on the stamina issue.

    Since the patch, I’ve gradually had to take more and more notice of my stamina and how much of it is eaten up by certain attacks and actions. It’s no longer something I can ignore the majority of the time and it does force me to look at engagements differently, especially with certain setups. Skilled tactics that utilize feints, combos and kicks are punished pretty hard by the new stamina levels, especially if you’re an aggressive player, and in this case, I consider it a negative.

    However, anybody who watched episode 6 from the first season of Game of Thrones should know there’s another side to this coin. Tearing your opponent down through stamina drain is now a viable tactic. Defensive players can now tire there aggressive opponents by back-peddaling and being smart about when to engage. The increased stamina loss for completely missing a swing, further demonstrates that this is a tactic Torn Banner wanted to see viable.

    This does however prevent very skilled players from engaging multiple enemies in gang-bang situations, which is also unfortunate, because I myself would much rather see skill take prevalence over a constant barrage of messy swings.

    All in all, I can work with the current system and I’ll be able to deal with it if it remains the same, but I would have no objection to a middle of the road compromise between what we have now and what we had previously.

    I agree with the points made in this post.



  • if they would remove the stamina system, it would do nothing but make the game better

    its totally useless, spammers can still smash the shit out of m1 for a long time and good players get punished



  • Stamina is great for dealing with one maybe two. Enemys
    But any more than that u will die or back up in to a friendly and u die
    GODS OF TORN BANNER here are plees !!!



  • @x123:

    if they would remove the stamina system, it would do nothing but make the game better

    Go play WotR and leave Chivalry alone.



  • @x123:

    if they would remove the stamina system, it would do nothing but make the game better

    its totally useless, spammers can still smash the shit out of m1 for a long time and good players get punished

    infinite kick and dogde and bunny hopping doesnt sound good to me … imo the stamina is fine …
    -1 on this post



  • I have to give a -1 on this also. IMO the penalties to stamina are still not big enough as seen through the amount of vangaurd/knight swing spam in all modes of play other than competitive matches.

    It seems to me most people who have stam issues primarily play FFA or LTS games where you don’t live long enough and swing spam is king until you get TKed by someone else spamming on your team in LTS or get your head lopped of by the guy that just spawned directly behind you in FFA.

    Kwes



  • Stamina is especially rough for punching. I run out of stamina due to combo uppercuts and vanguard charge punches (falcon punches) a lot! You would think not wielding a weapon would save your energy… :?



  • @The:

    @x123:

    if they would remove the stamina system, it would do nothing but make the game better

    Go play WotR and leave Chivalry alone.

    Rather go and play M&B… :?

    But seriously, I don’t think stamina is the most important feature in Chivalry. It’s okay to be in as it adds a bit of realism, but this is supposed to be a skill-based fighting game. Make it so that skillful players can beat the shit of n00b hordes without having to pause for seconds after swinging the sword 2-3 times and everything is fine.



  • @Siegbert:

    @The:

    @x123:

    if they would remove the stamina system, it would do nothing but make the game better

    Go play WotR and leave Chivalry alone.

    Rather go and play M&B… :?

    But seriously, I don’t think stamina is the most important feature in Chivalry. It’s okay to be in as it adds a bit of realism, but this is supposed to be a skill-based fighting game. Make it so that skillful players can beat the shit of n00b hordes without having to pause for seconds after swinging the sword 2-3 times and everything is fine.

    Wouldn’t it be better to just make missing cost 2 times more stamina than being parried, and being parried cost 2 times more stamina than blocking, or something like that?
    It would make people play smarter and/or spamming being less effective while skill would be rewarded.



  • -1

    Well that sounds really self-satisfied to me.

    A lot of what OP and some responses say fits perfectly into the stereotype of player who gets used to farming low ranks on pub servers and is mostly only limited by certain game machanics that where perfectly fine at the beginning and now start cap his progress.
    Suddenly, chivalry is not a team based game anymore. The enemy team is only regardes as mindless cattle ready for your weapon of choice and the own team is either contributing too less or even too much in case of teamkill or killsteal. So the only reasonable solution is to uncap your favorite meleeclass and become some sort of medieval, profanity spewing rambo right?

    I’m not saying siegbert is one of these or anyone else here, but I feel like this is the general direction of this request.

    Since I mostly play archer, this sounds very self-satisfied to me.
    Although I can gladly admit archers are capable of dominating since the patch, they are also very dependend on their team. They might very well benefit the most of all classes when you’re team is doing a good job, because you always have cover and there will always be an enemy focused on other problems than dodging your shots.
    However, this can turn back very very quickly. Archers are most likely not able to stop a push when their melee lines fail. It’s sometimes very frustrating how quickly you lose “controll” over the battle as an archer, although you’re much better than most of your enemies, simply because your class depends so much on it’s team and you feel like you actually should be able to hold the enemy back on your own.
    Still, I consider it to be balanced and part of the game. Melees are already much more self-dependend and although I’m sure they occasionally feel the same, I don’t see why they should be so self-depended, they actually don’t need a team anymore.

    The gametype says: “Team-objective”, “Team-deathmatch”, “Last-Team-Standing”.
    On what point did you start to expect yourself soloing the whole thing for good? In a game like chivalry, it is totally fine that 1v3 is a hard situation -nomatter how good you are, that 1v10 is impossible, and that teamwork overpowers playerskill. There is no need to change this.

    However, Slygoat makes a good point again. Stamina drain could be “smoothed” and tweaked so a probably to-be displayed weapon stat “stamina cost” will become a part of your weapon choice. Not because chivarly needs stronger melee individuals, but because it makes it’s weapon variety more interesting and your choice more challenging.

    @Wulfy
    You’re right, you don’t automatically die on spot as soon as your stamina bar flashes empty.

    If I’m not mistaken tho, you recently dominated a bo15 vs dubjay. I’ve never seen him performing so badly so I asked what went wrong. It turned out he wasn’t able to deal with the pressure the high stamina drain of blocking your 2h weapon build on him. Sure he hit you quite often, but eventually he made just too many mistakes.
    It’s not only that stamina prevents you from ultilizing key mechanics, it is a part of psycological warfare, which is in turn a key part of this game.

    So yes you don’t automatically die, but it can easily cause your defeat, even in high rank / competetive gameplay.



  • Another -1 here. If anything, the mindless swinging of two handed weapons should decrease stamina more! What the OP and lots of follow up posters seem to want is the power and protection of a knight with the agility and mobility of an archer or MaA, which is completely unrealistic.

    As a knight, you know that once you hit an enemy and combo on, he’s dead - period. And you can take a lot of punishment yourself. All that power comes with the downside of quickly tiring to the point where you are lucky to be still able to block and make single attacks if you’re missing too often or trying to move like a ninja (fortunately, or we would probably only see knights and vanguards).

    Try playing as a MaA for a while, getting hit by combo attacks even if you dart in and hit them because flinching doesn’t work correctly, and getting close enough to kiss him and still his halberd tip can hit you because the damaging areas of the longer weapons are broken. Add more stamina for those units so they can continue their blind swinging indefinitely (without any regard for their teammates I might add), and any need for skill previously present in the game is gone.



  • @Escadin:

    -1

    Well that sounds really self-satisfied to me.

    A lot of what OP and some responses say fits perfectly into the stereotype of player who gets used to farming low ranks on pub servers and is mostly only limited by certain game machanics that where perfectly fine at the beginning and now start cap his progress.
    Suddenly, chivalry is not a team based game anymore. The enemy team is only regardes as mindless cattle ready for your weapon of choice and the own team is either contributing too less or even too much in case of teamkill or killsteal. So the only reasonable solution is to uncap your favorite meleeclass and become some sort of medieval, profanity spewing rambo right?

    Well, in best case it’s both a really good solo fighting game and a really good team game. Actually I find it’s this (relatively new) genre that manages to get both concepts together far better than any fps in the past did.
    It was really the same in Mount&Blade Warband: as a team used to work together you can be unbeatable on the battlefield, and with some really neat fighting skills you can be victorious in a 1vs3 situation. That’s why I loved M&B so much, and that’s why I love Chivalry so much.

    My very best moments in this game were when there are skillful players in both teams. You can’t go in and slaughter guys who know all the tricks. They will team up and parry your attacks while others kick and stab you.

    It is a team game. And it is a skill demanding game.

    The disadvantage of a knight shouldn’t be his lack of breath but his slowliness. When a well trained MAA manages to get close enough he can beat the crap out of me while I’m nearly defenseless.

    I see why the devs thought stamina would be a good idea. It’s basically a design choice. It adds some realism to the combat so you won’t see people constantly performing swing combos while jumping which would be a ridiculous sight. But it should not limit my way of fighting too much…


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