Melee Combat Revamp Patch



  • There should be a melee combat revamp patch.

    The parry system doesn’t work well for consistency with the game having latency issues, sync issues, feints forcing you to make guesses rather than react, swing dragging (which only is an issue with these other issues thrown in) and button que’ing such as if you press parry while you are in a parry, it will do another parry afterwards no matter what (even if you aren’t holding it, so you end up not having real time control over your character).

    Without using a shield, among top players you never see a consistent winner since they both are feinting and it depends on who guesses right each time. This is causing the skill ceiling to be lower than it should be. You play man at arms and guessed wrong once? There goes your head.

    Now, aside from that. In my opinion the melee combat isn’t even complex enough to keep interest too long. It gets stale pretty quickly. This differs a lot from a melee combat system such as seen in Movie Battles 2 mod for Jedi Academy which used coding from Open Jedi Project mod which was coded by RazorAce.

    KdDBE8cuns4

    Theres an example of what I speak of. All the bars and such at the bottom of the screen are relevant to melee combat and this is on the quake 3 engine so the graphics are obviously not amazing. These are just some average players, high end players could do much more.

    All the graphic visuals are relevant to the combat as well. Such as every time you see a spark, that means a player could instantly go into a quick swing from it and it was caused by purposely making your weapons touch eachother.

    The weapons actually did touch eachother and that is how blocking worked. 7 swing directions, 4 bars to manage while melee fighting (one for blocking, one for health, one for force power, one for attack power, itd be too much to explain each), a disarm function that required an opponent lets go of holding block while doing a swing and that you have extremely precise timing in pressing the rrequired buttons at the exact moment your weapons touch eachother. Like in chivalry you also had to aim at the weapon you are blocking, but unlike chivalry you had to do so in a manner that made the tip to middle of your weapon touch theirs. If it touched anywhere else, you lose some block bar and possibly some health. 3 different stances you could switch between on the fly that all had different speeds, reach and stance/swing animations. If you made your weapon touch the enemy while it was idle, you could then go directly into a combo with animations that look similar to a quick parry attack in chivalry. You could also interrupt swings but this was done by your swing coming from the opposite direction they swing and hitting their weapon. One mistake against a good player would equal death.

    The melee combat also came into play every time you melee fought someone, even in the middle of a gunmen shooting at you. It wasn’t overshadowed at all. There was a slew of other things in there too that made it a mental juggle of reaction time, clever thinking, strategy and memory. If this was done on the crusty old quake 3 engine, I’m pretty sure something better can be done on Unreal 3 engine by seemingly more talented devs. Eventually a Chiv Melee Combat v2 Patch would be nice.



  • I agree C:MW’s melee system is extremely simplistic by comparison.

    However, I’m torn as to whether a change is needed; it’s a different game with different goals.

    C:MW is about brutally fast & unforgiving kills (& much ganking) in mass-melee brawls; protracted 1v1 duelling is not its focus.

    That said, MB2 managed to do both; a deep & meaningful skill based melee system* that worked harmoniously with the overarching team-based LTS objective based gameplay.
    Though striving for the balance that was attained in MB2 is a tall order; it took years of finessing by a team of dedicated devs & beta testers to get to its current state.
    In retrospect I think the balance they reached between jedi & gunner classes was masterful, and woefully under-appreciated at the time.

    *(for those willing to invest the time into learning it)



  • A few things need revamping yes. Some classes can inflict one hit kills yet the archer’s cudgel for instance takes 4 or 5 hits to take down a knight… what is that about? Archer’s already have no armour so make their melee combat more powerful please…



  • Also want to say, melee duels didn’t usually last as long as you see in that video. That video is just cutting out the quick 2 second duels most likely. It was common to make a bad mistake at the start and die extremely quick whether at high level or low level play.

    My point here being that more complex mechanics doesn’t equate to dreadfully long fights at all. Often it leads to extremely quick fights when its highly skilled player vs a not so good player.



  • The simplicity is what makes this games melee so great IMO. It’s simple, but deep as hell and hard to master. Figuring out swing timings and range for each weapon is so important, and understanding when you or your opponent has the advantage, and capitalizing on it is a huge part of gameplay. In addition, when dealing with more than one opponent, being aware of your surroundings and trying to capitalize on one guy putting his guard down etc… it just plays out brilliantly.

    Parrying is insanely accurate. If you have a reasonable ping, you should never feel screwed over with parries. Remember “aim the parry at the tip of the weapon”. Some weapons are much harder to parry than others (the smaller it is, and the closer the opponent is, the harder; someone in your face with a dagger is almost impossible to parry). I feel like parrying works extremely well, possibly a bit too easy.

    Swing dragging I agree is an issue, I thought it might have been fixed last patch but not sure. Specifically, I don’t think being able to slightly adjust your direction mid-swing is bad, but being able to make a script that makes your sensitivity/DPI super high while you swing, and then do a 180o turn mid-swing, is bogus. Fortunately not many people bother with this.

    If I could find flaws in this game, personally it’s that having zero stamina isn’t punishing enough (you can still permanently parry, you’re just stunned while doing so), and that kicking doesn’t really do enough. But, these are touchy subjects, kicking especially - you don’t want kicking to be a 100% guaranteed hit always, because then people would just kick-hit-kick-hit-etc constantly. And it is nice to be able to pull out those last-ditch parries when you’re completely on your heels, so I dunno. I trust the devs to make the game more awesome, but I don’t think it needs any drastic changes personally



  • I’ve been saying this for so long. Go look for my post in the custom content forum in the bushido thread page 10. For a valid revamp. It’s a symptom of a major upcoming disease if I can go into the tutorial and the bot will start playing better than most pubs.

    Although I think the system is fine for team games, dueling is out of the question for chivalry.

    Everytime someone finds a way to use inputs creatively it’s wanted to be patched. (Combo Feinting, Instant Overhead)

    feints forcing you to make guesses rather than react

    As of this patch only 1h feints and at facehug range force me to guess. All other feints are zzzz boring to parry.



  • @MUSASHI:

    Everytime someone finds a way to use inputs creatively it’s wanted to be patched. (Combo Feinting, Instant Overhead)

    There is a difference between playing creatively and exploiting. If its patched then it obviously wasn’t intended by the devs and is an exploit of a mechanic they do not want.

    Combo feinting allowed for a quick attack that is unexpected outside of the way the devs wanted it to work. Instant overhead is the same thing.

    Both of these things allowed for attacks that were much quicker than intended and were therefore patched. Its not because the devs don’t want you to fight creatively, its because they don’t want their mechanics they worked so hard on to be exploited by finding unintended results whether they be bugs or missed timings.

    It may be ‘creative’ but if it isn’t intended then it shouldn’t be in the game.



  • Nice post OP, the “guessing” part of your post is what I’m trying to get at in my thread too: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7051



  • You could turn this game into Warband where the players with godly reaction speeds would never die.

    I don’t advise that.

    I can tell you that if it weren’t for facehug feints I would never die to anybody.



  • The problem is as musashi says if you nerf feint too much then you break the game in the sense that it’s too hard to fake out very skilled opponents and fights can basically last indefinitely. I don’t think any of us want m&b combat - so we must come up with a better solution.

    The best idea that I have thought up .1 or .2 time at the end of the windup of an attack that you cannot feint during to give some time to react but not a ton. The .1 timer would be used for 2hers because they are much more readable then 1hers and then 1hers get the .2 timer. But of course this would have to be tested thoroughly to find the perfect values.



  • I agree with twincannon. I bought Chivalry because the combat is so simple and doesn’t require the players to have twitch reactions like every other FPS in existence. While it isn’t perfect yet (flinching is still inconsistent, and unintentional button queueing is annoying as you said), there shouldn’t be any major changes.

    X, Here’s the thing i disagree with most:

    Like in chivalry you also had to aim at the weapon you are blocking, but unlike chivalry you had to do so in a manner that made the tip to middle of your weapon touch theirs. If it touched anywhere else, you lose some block bar and possibly some health.

    What makes great games is automation: taking a complicated action and making it simple. It’s very simple to aim your reticule at the tip of your opponent’s weapon and right click. The game takes care of the rest for you, so you don’t have to be some maniac with a fast reaction time to do it successfully. Heck, even for something so simple, so many players still have trouble blocking that it would be criminal to increase it’s difficulty.

    I understand where you are coming from though, that “the top 1%” of players might want a more complicated dueling experience. But it has to be done without ruining the game for the rest of us. The fact that you showed a mod as an example is very telling; anyone who wanted to play that mod could do so, and leave the rest to play the original Jedi Academy. If you want such a thing in Chivalry it will also have to be a mod, because TB still needs to pay salaries, and they can only do that by working on more content and maps, rather than catering to the top 1% of players.



  • @Knil:

    The problem is as musashi says if you nerf feint too much then you break the game in the sense that it’s too hard to fake out very skilled opponents and fights can basically last indefinitely. I don’t think any of us want m&b combat - so we must come up with a better solution.

    The best idea that I have thought up .1 or .2 time at the end of the windup of an attack that you cannot feint during to give some time to react but not a ton. The .1 timer would be used for 2hers because they are much more readable then 1hers and then 1hers get the .2 timer. But of course this would have to be tested thoroughly to find the perfect values.

    I actually suggested this long time ago. Jest was completely against this idea.
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5294

    What I said:
    "Only allow feints for half of the windup position, and not throughout the whole thing. What I mean is: If a weapon has 0.4 windup time, don’t let feint to be used at 0.39 of the windup. Only let it happen upto 0.2 of windup time (for example). This way, you only get hit if you reacted too early.

    According to “How fast do we react to moving obstacles?” by Aivar M P, Brenner E, Smeets J B J, in 2005, Average human reaction time is around 250 ms. According to a human reaction test and data collected from humanbenchmark.com, average reaction time was around 215 ms.

    Throw in ping differences, lag, and skippy animation on top of the human body limitation, and now it’s physically impossible for human players to react to these feints when used at the last moment of the windup. Those who are blocking feints purely do so by chances and luck."

    Some ideas I had afterwards were:

    1. Add something like chamber attack from M&B, but instead of doing the combo attack right after parry, this mechanic only parries. Think of it like two swords clashing together. Then, assign weight values to different weapons and heavier weapons beat this ‘chamber mechanic’ of a lighter weight weapon, unless you press RMB to parry.

    Or

    2. Make RMB do two things: for 0.5 seconds after clicking RMB, you do the normal, current parry mechanic. But if you hold it longer, you are basically holding your weapon up in the way you hold your shield up. However, there should be a negative side effect of doing this in exchange for protecting yourself from feints. Realistically speaking, maybe you receive partial damage of a full swing, or something else that someone can think of.

    However, the fact that you can’t raise and hold your weapon up when you could do that with shield is already absurd.



  • my opinion combat is solid, i think some of those 20 ft vanguard swings are obviously a lil iffy and really make you have to guess when to block. The only thing i would say is to add types of blocking.

    They say you have to duck and aim up to block high attacks, when all you have to do is block. Make the ducking and looking up REQUIRED for overhead attacks. Make ducking and blocking low for low swings.

    That way its now is a Fake fest, because right now if you play someone worth any kind of talk it turns to a who can fake who the most, with throwing a million fakes till you can get one hit. Its fun….for now, but thats because most people suck so they usually die from one fake. Just wait till people get good and it will become boring REALLY fast.

    Those changes i said would make fights more skillfull because it actually makes the other swings usefull, it makes thinking REQUIRED, not just swing swing swing swing or block block block block.



  • @yayolol:

    my opinion combat is solid, i think some of those 20 ft vanguard swings are obviously a lil iffy and really make you have to guess when to block. The only thing i would say is to add types of blocking.

    They say you have to duck and aim up to block high attacks, when all you have to do is block. Make the ducking and looking up REQUIRED for overhead attacks. Make ducking and blocking low for low swings.

    That way its now is a Fake fest, because right now if you play someone worth any kind of talk it turns to a who can fake who the most, with throwing a million fakes till you can get one hit. Its fun….for now, but thats because most people suck so they usually die from one fake. Just wait till people get good and it will become boring REALLY fast.

    Those changes i said would make fights more skillfull because it actually makes the other swings usefull, it makes thinking REQUIRED, not just swing swing swing swing or block block block block.

    I find Vanguard weapons easiest to block, except the facehug feint stabs. The problem lies with most 1-handers.

    Having to crouch to block an overhead or stab is… not realistic.



  • Hey X, there is a game called Blade Symphony. It’s not out yet but it might be interesting and fun. I hope they integrate it into a Team deathmatch mode or something like that.



  • Actually, it kinda sounds like the game you’re looking for is Dark Souls. http://www.preparetodie.com/



  • The problem with all Sword games is that they try to be a fighting game-lite experience yet fail because either the core mechanics are too simple or the game comes down to who can react the fastest/play more consistent. Even a game with the most simple inputs(Smash Bros Melee) is about 10x deeper than Chivalry/Warband because of all the things you can actually practice and get good at.

    We need more mechanics and ways to separate from each other by deviations in input use.



  • What makes melee at high levels less fun for me is, of course, feinting. Turning the end game into essentially a guesswork game (yes you can predict some but it requires sprinkles of luck even then). Besides this, one handed weapons have too much of an advantage (non bladed ones) in that it requires you to aim at the tip of the weapon to properly parry or block.

    But bladed weapons parry anywhere you look at the weapon. Far, far easier to parry. It makes logical sense, yes, but not balance wise. Non-bladed weapons don’t really have a downside, they deal insane damage and are quite fast.

    It would be awesome if weapon collision was a thing.

    @MUSASHI:

    As of this patch only 1h feints and at facehug range force me to guess. All other feints are zzzz boring to parry.

    Any weapon at facehugging range will give you trouble. Although, only if a decent player uses them. Not that it takes much skill to do it right, you just have to hold it until the end of the windup. Because an overhead attack can be accelerated, if you don’t parry at this point, there’s almost no chance you’ll be able to. Swings, yeah those aren’t too difficult to see coming. Stabs, bit harder. Again, facehugging range changes everything.

    The point is it is a guessing game when a decent player uses them. That’s not fun. Why is it even here? I hope they have an option to exclude feinting when they release dueling mode. That would be a good compromise for now.

    @MUSASHI:

    You could turn this game into Warband where the players with godly reaction speeds would never die.

    I don’t advise that.

    I can tell you that if it weren’t for facehug feints I would never die to anybody.

    Challenge accepted!

    Steam: The Radiant

    @Knil:

    The problem is as musashi says if you nerf feint too much then you break the game in the sense that it’s too hard to fake out very skilled opponents and fights can basically last indefinitely. I don’t think any of us want m&b combat - so we must come up with a better solution.

    I don’t understand why time matters here. So what if a duel lasts a while? That’s awesome. Epic duels.

    The problem is feinting is fine as is for team based gameplay, where it’s really meant for. In that setting things aren’t meant to be fair. Everyone can feint even though it’s not great for dueling, that’s not the point of a team based game.

    That said, I’ve fought many players without feinting and even the best, fights rarely last more than a couple minutes. Hardly that long at all. Again, for a duel.

    The best idea that I have thought up .1 or .2 time at the end of the windup of an attack that you cannot feint during to give some time to react but not a ton. The .1 timer would be used for 2hers because they are much more readable then 1hers and then 1hers get the .2 timer. But of course this would have to be tested thoroughly to find the perfect values.

    The only thing feint needs now, adjusted for team gameplay, is to cost more stamina based upon how long in the windup the attack is. Makes sense. The longer the windup the more energy it takes to stop it.



  • I think many missed a point that if the game had more mechanics introduced to make the combat more difficult then you wouldn’t need guess work feints to make it so its possible for people to die quickly. All players would be engaged in a juggle of thoughts on multiple things.



  • I agree the game mechanics could go a long way towards greater depth - especially in the case of feints being the end-all be-all strategy pretty much because there are no other mixups you can perform that guarantee results at the moment. But devoting an entire patch to reinventing the combat would likely “break” the game in the progress. There will be a huge amount of people who are dissatisfied with the game if too much is changed at once. (AoC Toe-to-Toe patch anyone?)

    Of the games mentioned in this thread, I don’t think any of them refined their melee system overnight. It came from gradual additions and tweaks to the combat over the game’s lifespan - and the games being discussed are relatively old, while Chivalry is extremely young still - not to mention the modding community creating new content for the game that was either considered so good it was included in the base game, or was just widely used by pretty much all of the serious players.

    I think the best way to go is for combat to evolve gradually and be properly refined. There’s no need to reinvent the wheel here, Chivalry unarguably has a solid base game or we wouldn’t all be playing it and discussing how to better it. Also, the faster a proper SDK is released and the community can start putting serious inputs into the game via modding instead of just saying things that look good on paper, the better.

    Some things I think could be improved and added that would show immediate results without feeling like an entirely new game are directional swings (I.E. the ability to start a swing from the left without a combo); the ability to combo directly into a parry instead of feinting out of a combo to parry after a swing; serious improvements or a total rethinking of how kicks/shoves work; various changes to stamina, its effects on combat, and what you can do when out of stamina; and a rethinking of tertiary weapon options and the role they play in the game. I’m sure there are others, as well. If small but important tweaks like these are made over the course of the next few months, I think it’ll lead to great things without feeling like a community-splitting rush.


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