Armor and body penetration (long)



  • Greetings human units!
    First of all I want to say that I like this game game very much and find that its combat system is so far the best I have experienced in my gaming history. This new post I want to open hereby is about the way the weapons penetrate the oponents armor and body in case of a successful hit. I havent find a post about this topic in particular so I open it here. In case there is already a discussion about this I apologize. Either way I think its worth to talk about what I have in mind.

    However, the thing I dont like about the combat system atm is the way a successful blow just penetrates the armor and guts of the opponent just as if they were nothing but air, making it able to continue comboing/swinging. In my opinion this causes some annoyances, besides that it is extremely unrealistic:

    1. Accidental teamkilling although you killed an opponent first (Sorry! ;) … NP!)
    2. Unintended helicopter behavior of some large weapons
    3. Fury-like fighting styles (boring as hell)
    4. Strange hit-trading in many times -> reduction of the intense feeling of a fight

    My proposal, however, is that A SUCCESSFUL HIT SHOULD JUST END THE SWING(-ANIMATION), making the weapon go back to original position imediately! (Just as if it was blocked)

    I know this sounds kinda drastically and I can see the counter-arguments. But as far as I have thought it through i might just work fine. Let me explain how by answering to some counter-arguments:

    1. “Swing stopes, so I cant combo? Yu mad?!”
    Well, right now comboing to overwhelm somebody in a quick fury of strikes is a commonly used, yet boring way of fighting. You have the advantage because your swing wont stop but your opponent is stunned on every strike. (HURRAY!) This makes the game easier for all the rushers out there. I think comboing should go back to what it was intended for: Miss a blow on purpose and then let the opponent run into your backswing. This method is certainly not affected by the fact that your strike ends where the guts of your opponent begin. (Because you miss the first strike!). Right now you can hit an opponent and then make him run in your backswing and hit him again and you can continue to do so, great! (wait…what!?!)
    In addition, if the time of a stun and the time you need untill your weapon goes back to original position are well defined it might just feel not just like comboing but real intelligent fighting. (Hit him with swing->weapon goes back->overhead strike->he is to slow to block/blocks wrong direction->endless fame!) Looking for the first strike is still adventageous and fast fighting is still possible. (fighting style is more affected by feinting and the speed of the weapon anyway i think)

    2. “But I want to chop off more than one head in one blow! What else is the hammer for then, ay?!”
    Easy, In case a limb is choped off/destroyed your weapon does NOT go back to original position, because YOU CHOPED HIS HEAD OFF, the weapon penetraded armor and flesh completely! Let the dushbag next to him feel that!

    3. “So i fight against two dudes, my weapon get stucked in one of them and the other dude easily kills me?!”
    The time the weapon needs to be ready for a new action is short. You can block and then kill him.
    Besides right now fighting against two fighters is hard anyway. What you do right now is pretty much the same you would do in case the game includes my proposal. You block one off and try to kill him and then turn to the other guy. (Seldomly they come in a bite-sized line to kill them in one strike anyway!)

    Further arguments to put on the pro column:
    The fact that your swing ends at the opponents death might even help you fighting in a crowed area. I think everybody has experienced the situation when you killed someone and your swing continued and in the edge of your field of view you see an opponent, and somehow you know that you are gonna die, because your weapon will be still “on its way” when he or she has already dipped his weapon in your face. This way you get PUNISHED for that you bravely killed someone of a group of foes! (Dodging and running not always possible in that matterer)
    So, if your strikes ends where and when the opponent dies, you can possibly block an incoming strike sooner.
    Furthermore the balance is smoother. You cannot just run to the back of lets say 3 opponents and swing your hammer just to see one of them go down and the other 2 get slayn by your teammates immediately. Its the end for those trolls who just want to sponge the killz.
    Another advantage is that teamkilling is not only reduced automatically but also actively by changing the attack strategy a bit. If you hit your teammate in a crowded place your swing ends and your weapon is stucked for that moment. This would make people even more careful about where they swing into next.

    So again: A successful hit should end the swing(-animation)! (hard to implement? I guess not)

    I hope I have made my point. Maybe you disagree, all this is is only a proposal! The way it is right now, I think, could need some improvement! Thanks for reading! See you on the battlefield!



  • I agree that weapons shouldn’t go through people, but I don’t see what you have against comboing. It’s completely legitimate and should stay in the game. If someone gets hit and isn’t smart enough to block the second one, they should die.



  • Sorry I am not against comboing, maybe I didnt make myself clear on that one. I am with you on that matter of course! You should however be able to hit someone multiple times in a row! If the weapon get stucked it just mabe “doesnst look” like the comboing that we have right now. Nevertheless it should feel like comboing.
    Sorry for confusion!



  • One more thing: My proposal does even support the idea to implement the fourth attacking direction (or vice versa). Imagine you hit someone so many times that you are certain he/she needs only one last blow. Naturally he or she will push back a little and eventually another opponent comes around to his/her side. Now, lets say, the injured one and the new one stand in (more or less) one line in your field of view and the critical moment has come when you want to kill the injured one. The injured one, however, is left and the fresh one is right of your weapons tip. If you strike now with the standard swing attack only the right one of course will take the incoming blow and the left one can buzz off. (specialy anoying in case its an archer or something). If you can, however, start your swing from the left side you can kill the injured first, block the right one off and continue fighting (best case scenario of course). An overhead or stab strike can help you there too of course.
    The problem right now is just that in case the fresh one that has come around might not even be focussing on you at the moment and you can just go: “left or right, ha! Doesnt matter, I do my only swing and hit both of them turds! Haha!” (Happens to often if you ask me) So not just did you kill one guy but you damaged and stunned one guy more, not because you are a good fighter but only because of mechanical loop holes.
    If TB implements the fourth attacking direction but the blows still go through everyone offhandedly, it would make less sense with my proposal not included, I think. Thanks all for reading!



  • Great points. I agree with you.



  • At first I didn’t like where you were headed with this, but after reading on, I agree with you. Just to be clear though, combo-ing would still exist, until something solid was hit, like an enemy or a wall? But if you cut off a head or limb, ones combo can continue? That makes good sense to me.

    (Edited after more thought on the matter.)

    @Siegfried

    After thinking about Krim33’s suggested system some more, and reading your post, I No longer think that combos should be stopped when hitting an enemy body. It would slow the pace of combat. I do like your idea that enemies hit by the same strike take less and less damage as the strike continues through each one.



  • That is exactly what I meant!

    (If someone wants to know how fighting with stopping blows feels like, just fight against a pile or something solid :-D. I havent tested it very much but I think you can deal strikes to that pile in just about a similar time-frame you would do with comboing moves against an (non-solid) opponent atm. The only thing to get rid of would be the rebound you deal with everytime you hit something solid right now (and replace it with that pull back animation of the stab-attack or something.))
    So TB, you basically just have adjust some timing and inject a pile in everybody! (Did I really just said that?? :-D)
    Greetings!



  • Great topic Krim. I totaly agree with you.
    your topic should become a official poll.

    Team kills should reduce with that cuz the hits don’t will pass anymore and at same time you can use that to protect yourself using the lack of skill of your opponents running behing them when an enemy strike comes.

    AGREED



  • Body penetration is problematic in the game. It’s strange to see someone with a hatchet taking down two or three people with one swing, or killing your teammate with a spear stab because it went all the way through your enemy.

    Not sure what can be done about it, though. And certainly, a weapon should continue travelling if, say, you chopped off someone’s head.



  • Instead of hopping back to its original state, I’d much rather prefer to see a different system.

    When you swing, you will still go through multiple enemies, but the second guy you hit (with the same initial strike) will get reduced damage. If 3 players are queued up for the slaughterhouse, the third will receive even less damage etc. Armour would also affect this, meaning if a Knight takes the first hit a MaA will take less damage when it would’ve been another MaA that took the first hit.

    This would still keep comboing perfectly viable, because otherwise you’re slowing the pace of the game down a lot. If I manage to land my first hit, I should be able to land my second hit too on the enemy, unless he manages to pull off a succesfull block.

    Also, this will add a new attribute to weapons. Some weapons may have higher penetration values, so that the damage mitigation you get from being the second person being hit by the same strike gets reduced. In return it could have lesser overall damage, making the weapon better for mowing down large groups of enemies, but way less effective in a 1v1.

    The penetration in Chivalry as it stands is indeed a bit ludicrous, but I don’t think you should get rid of it altogether. It still adds more to the game than if you’d completely remove it.



  • @Siegfried

    After thinking about Krim33’s suggested system some more, and reading your post, I No longer think that combos should be stopped when hitting an enemy body. It would slow the pace of combat. I do like your idea that enemies hit by the same strike take less and less damage as the strike continues through each one.



  • I agree w/ the OP.

    The more things function rationally, the better it will feel, and play fairly to ones instinctual perception of what just happened in front of them,

    I’d at the very least, give it a run on the test servers.



  • What if, if that “hopping back” of the weapon becomes part of the combo? (its what I originally intended somehow)
    So like: start swing -> hit! -> pull back-animation/time for initiating new swing -> next swing!
    (its one move!)
    or possilby: swing->hit->pull back-animation-> block
    (normal combos still exists of course if you dont hit anything)
    I dont even think this would affect the paze of it so much (you can balance the timing I guess). People will get down just as quick as before, just not by so much random swings anymore.



  • I don’t think anyone wants to see comboing get taken out. But what we do want is for weapons to not pass through multiple enemies so easily. An entire spear shouldn’t pass through an enemy body, for instance, or if it does, it should do reduced or no damage.



  • both “reducing damage after hitting the first target” and "getting back to the original stance after a positive strike that did not chopped a head, arm or leg off " are very good ideas and why not unite them?

    I belive that krim’s idea is almost perfect but in the case you kill an enemy, the blow would continue the way but with reduced damage.

    So, the “noobs” would not get mad at all cuz what we are trying to be accepted here certainly would make they mad at beginning but I hope it would also make the new people get some skill way faster, reducing the team kills* and making the game more realistic what is a great point to improve the Chivalry sales.

    Team kills: This is another very important point. The team kills makes too many skilled player quit the game cuz don’t matter how good you are if your mates are hitting you from behind or passing through the enemy and hitting you.
    So it would also help to keep the good players playing.

    I really wish that this topic would be taken seriously by the developers



  • We’re talking about body penetration when you can literally stab someone by dragging it on it’s way back.

    Some people just don’t get it.

    I think comboing should go back to what it was intended for: Miss a blow on purpose and then let the opponent run into your backswing

    This is an awful analysis and if you really think the developers designed the combo system for that sole purpose you are really stupid. It’s like you don’t seem to grasp the basic function of a combo system in this game in the first place. Which leads to the question of why you are writing this long post that makes zero sense.

    and making the game more realistic what is a great point to improve the Chivalry sales.

    And the game is supposed to be realistic?

    If the weapon get stucked it just mabe “doesnst look” like the comboing that we have right now. Nevertheless it should feel like comboing.

    Literally rolling my eyes pretty hard right now.



  • Oh, we gotta Hater :-D

    First off all the second statement you quote doesnt come from me.
    Second, by the first quotation i refer to the training section where they actually make you do that.
    Besides I dont want comboing to be gone anyway, i want it different in case you hit someone. Thats what the third statement is about. Its not always easy to correctly describe what you want, specialy when you are not native english.

    And for the record, I am shocked by your lack of simple communication skills. You bring no arguments, no reasons, you dont even have a stand point on any side. All you do is insulting and flaming, so your post is completely useless. As long as you dont bring arguments whatsoever, I will no longer answer to you.
    I wish we could continue arguing like before as it has been a decent exchange of thoughts to this pont. The topic is too important, I think, to let it slip away by such pointless crap you just perfectly demonstrated.



  • I’ve been a bit of a flip-flopper on this issue. I like the idea of a human body in armor stopping a weapon from slicing through it like hot butter. Here’s my only complaint: Let’s say my first attack (a horizontal attack) starts from the right side; it’s a successful hit. (My weapon stops in my enemy’s body, no problems so far) I attack again, starting all over again from the right side. Whenever I hit an enemy with my first attack I don’t want to have to start over from the right side again. I want my combo to continue for aesthetic reasons. I’m fine with a little pause while my weapon is in my enemy, and with it not going through him and hitting others. I just want to be able to continue combo-ing even if my strikes are succesful. If you have already addressed this, then I am sorry for not understanding. Also sorry if I don’t make sense. (I’ve re-written it a few times and am not sure how else to put it.)



  • @ samuraigen52
    Yep that would suck of course. Thats why I came up with this:

    “What if, if that “hopping back” of the weapon becomes part of the combo? (its what I originally intended somehow)
    So like: start swing -> hit! -> pull back-animation/time for initiating new swing -> next swing!
    (its one move!)
    or possilby: swing->hit->pull back-animation-> block
    (normal combos still exists of course if you dont hit anything)”

    So if you trade a succesful hit from the right side you can add whatever strike you want within the pull back time. That would make you able to deal strikes just as if it was comboing, not matter from what direction next. And the normal comboing still exists too.
    So, instead of: weapon hits opponent -> swing continues unstoppably/add combo; its more like: Weapon hits opponent -> Pull back/add combo.
    It then all a matter of animations and timing, I think.



  • Imagine how cool it would be: You attack from the right side, your weapon gets stucked, you pull it out the flesh of your opponent make a 360, lift your weapon at the last moment and chop his head of from the left side. :-D
    But I am talking too much right now lol !


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