LTS as a Competitive Mode is Flawed.



  • Want to hear thoughts on this statement. I will type up my explanation later.



  • And why is that?



  • I think its really the maps that are a bit flawed. More of the maps need to be made specifically for the game mode.



  • MUSASHI if you are going to start a topic, please actually make your point and have something to say yourself to start the discussion off with.

    One-line ambigious statements that are basically just “blablabla…discuss” are silly, if you want a meaty discussion, lead by example.



  • Of course it is flawed. Since time over means a draw there is no incentive to seek contact with the enemy unless you are in a superior position. There needs to be another objective counter-strike style or some kind of point tally Street Fighter style.



  • This is why we’ve removed the timer from our competitive games. No more draws! Fight to the death!



  • Going to ignore that useless post by our own moderator.

    One poster is on the right track.

    I think its really the maps that are a bit flawed. More of the maps need to be made specifically for the game mode.

    As of now I think LTS has little to no strategic depth because of a lack of a prime objective besides killing the other team. Combined with a lot of maps having wide open spaces between both team’s spawns you have a tendency to force one team to go on offensive while you have a defensive advantage. Or on the otherhand having retarded chokepoints.

    Note: The only map I think is good for LTS is Arena.

    Let me give you examples on each map.

    Ruins: Tons of chokepoints/areas where you can funnel a team into giving you a positional advantage. Huge map which rewards static/defensive play and makes offensive play extremely difficult. Which also in turns makes abusing the lack of a anti-draw mechanic fruitful since the game still draws even if your team is down on players.

    Moor:Corner of the map rock on Agatha side. Can funnel people into splitting up going into either chokepoint or funneling them into one side. Huge middle area which could force teams to bait/play defensively because of fear of a good archer. Boring

    Throne Room: Optimal play on Agatha is to funnel into a chokepoint. If you try offensive play Mason can choke you on the entrance of the stairs going up. Boring.



  • All I’m hearing is “waaah chokepoints.”

    What do you want, an open field? Because I’m pretty sure you just complained about an open field too.



  • This doesn’t make it flawed. What is flawed in the above cases is your ability to form tactics and adapt to the situation. All you are saying is because blah blah is using X part of the map, LTS must be flawed because you can’t deal with it. If the opposing team is frequently gathering in a single zone, get more MAAs and light the zone up, alternatively, beat them to it if it’s somewhere in the centre of the map, such as the Throneroom (either Aga or Mason can secure the 3 entrances first).



  • Are you really saying firepot’s radius is big enough to deny the area of most of these chokepoints because they aren’t.

    Please bring up the stats.

    You are proposing we do things that we have already tried.

    What is flawed in the above cases is your ability to form tactics and adapt to the situation

    Adapt to what? The fact that a team can have a defender’s advantage in a mode with 1 spawn?



  • @Martin:

    This doesn’t make it flawed. What is flawed in the above cases is your ability to form tactics and adapt to the situation. All you are saying is because blah blah is using X part of the map, LTS must be flawed because you can’t deal with it. If the opposing team is frequently gathering in a single zone, get more MAAs and light the zone up, alternatively, beat them to it if it’s somewhere in the centre of the map, such as the Throneroom (either Aga or Mason can secure the 3 entrances first).

    if i wantd 2 adapt 2 the sitiuashion than i wood just sit on my side of the mapp lol… no objektive or any goales…

    the only way lts is balancd wood be 2 hav 2 roleplay clans charge eachother at start of roound…

    good teams like $hu clan n vq etc can just sit in back of map n w8 4 other team 2 attack…

    i no u r in a noobie roleplay clan so i will explaine 2 u:

    removin time dosent fix ne thing wtf… ok time is removedd so wat? i will tourtle n w8 4 u 2 attack me lol… lts is flawd n imba.

    and on ur throneroom example… ok we got the 3 doors now wat? their is still a choke n its just fukin gay 2 just sit their n wait 4 them 2 come.

    mayb when u fight top tear apponents u will understand… but now u are 2 noob lol…



  • If you’re being forced on the offensive because you either lack archers or their archers outnumber you, they are outplaying you. If you take out their archers first, and then keep pelting them with arrows and they will have no choice but to go to you or fall back further to get out of your ranged fire; if they fall back, take the higher ground/keep firing at them from afar and you’ll eventually get them down low enough so no position gives them a favourable chokepoint and even if they have shields, you can shoot around them if the archers are skilled enough. If neither team has archers but they are standing in a single zone and refusing to move then you need figure out ways to bait them and what sides to approach from and with how many etc (including the use of firepots and other throwables to disperse them) or otherwise refuse to move yourselves and don’t give in to them. Yes, I saw the game where one team killed an enemy archer then pulled back to get the win from the Dark Age Tourney because they had a rule where the most members alive wins and this is exactly why we have opted to not go down that route nor have a timer so that teams can’t gain favourable odds from it.

    And LuBu, I have no idea who you are, but get 7 other people, pick an LTS map, pick your side and fight us. Hell, lets do every single LTS map and you can pick your side every single map. How about that?



  • Before I respond to that please remember that we are playing under the darkage 5v5 LTS ruleset. Modify your post accordingly.



  • Before I respond to that please remember that we are playing under the darkage 5v5 LTS ruleset.

    So LTS is flawed because of the Dark Age 5v5 LTS ruleset now, or are you saying you can’t cater for Archers + MAA + your other VGs/Knights in a 5v5?



  • If you’re being forced on the offensive because you either lack archers or their archers outnumber you, they are outplaying you. If you take out their archers first, and then keep pelting them with arrows and they will have no choice but to go to you or fall back further to get out of your ranged fire

    Wrong, we go on the offensive in scrims because sitting across the map staring at eachother with shields up/hiding behind shielded players while two good archers try to pick eachother off is boring. Teams can confirm Shu clan has a good archer it is not an issue of not being able to win the distance fight.

    if they fall back, take the higher ground/keep firing at them from afar and you’ll eventually get them down low enough so no position gives them a favourable chokepoint

    How many arrows do you think we have? How many ammo boxes are on an LTS map? You can theorycraft but the reality is different. High ground is a minimal advantage if the highground itself is not a chokepoint.

    If neither team has archers but they are standing in a single zone and refusing to move then you need figure out ways to bait them and what sides to approach from and with how many etc

    The problem is that there is no advantage or incentive to attacking. A lot of the metagame revolves baiting your opponent into being the one attacking.



  • @Martin:

    Before I respond to that please remember that we are playing under the darkage 5v5 LTS ruleset.

    So LTS is flawed because of the Dark Age 5v5 LTS ruleset now, or are you saying you can’t cater for Archers + MAA + your other VGs/Knights in a 5v5?

    let us 5v5. if u win shu clan disbands 4evr. if we win u are revoked of moderater 4ever bc u are an emabrasment of a form poster lol…



  • Ignoring this ridiculous back and forth for a moment, I have to agree with MUSASHI on this topic. I have had this on my mind since beta. The lack of incentive for either team to make the first push leads to very boring periods of relative inactivity in anything close to an even match. In this recent tournament we have seen a lot of stalling regardless of map, and the times where people choose to go full aggression and make that push they usually do it because they’re either desperate (we have no good archers and they have several) or extremely confident (we’re Vq). In the former case this inevitably leads to failure and in the latter usually to victory, but this is again not a fair matchup. I believe that assuming relatively equal skilled teams with the same # of good archers (even if that # is 0), the team that makes the first move and exposes themselves will usually lose. The problem is accentuated more on some maps than others. If neither team has archers on a map like Moor, it doesn’t really matter where you fight at all. If both teams have archers on a map like Moor, the game stalls like hell.

    And of course this is ignoring the maps that are blatantly imbalanced and heavily favor one side, like the stones village, and darkforest final stage.



  • wtf…. ur a mod! ur supose 2 defend the game 2 the death n never admit flaws! the head mods will fire u!



  • @Martin:

    This is why we’ve removed the timer from our competitive games. No more draws! Fight to the death!

    That doesn’t fix anything. That just encourages standoffs. LTS standing gametypes need an objective of some form to force a confrontation. Like in Counter-Strike, the defending team wins if the attacking team doesn’t complete the objective. It is still a last team standing game, but one team has to plant the bomb. It can even be some form of simple objective that doesn’t activate until a team is mostly dead.

    For league play, LTS should never be played. It is a flawed gametype.



  • I’d like to have a LTS variant mode where if the round could potential end in an overall match win, the last man on the team that would lose gets a chance to 1v1 the enemy. Although, no recovery time would be allotted, so it would still be in favor of the winning team.

    Could spice it up more than always having a good player swarmed at the end. Not very fun if you ask me.


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