RK and MM Scrim Time Dispute



  • ||MM|| Steve here

    As it stands all of the NA scrim community has to scrim six hours earlier than normal to meet the Royal Knights time constraints. The problem is NA scrim groups aren’t able to sufficiently practice and prepare for the scrim. At the beginning of the second league there was a vote that involved one representative from each of the six clans in the league. Liquid (Clan Council member of MM) voted no on this decision, regardless the decision passed. GB sums up the result of this vote as: “Since we are primarily NA based we’ve made a compromise. Firstly, all scrims will take place on NA servers. Secondly, all scrims against RK will take place at 3:00pm EST.” The issue is this is not a compromise; 3:00pm EST is an ideal time for RK to scrim, they are able to practice for ample time before hand, scrim with all their top players, and fight against an opponent who has not had the same luxuries. Regular North American scrim clans are unable to adequately prepare for the scrims, MM for example doesn’t have the ability to practice before the scrim, and not nearly all of our members are able to make the scrim time. Our members who lead the scrims namely myself, Liquid, and Bopper are unable to make this time. We are experiencing a severe disadvantage before standing on the same field as RK. I’d also like to point out how biased this vote truly was, of the six involved in the vote I can account for two that were truly biased. GB initially invited RK to join the league; I imagine to help his own personal league flourish, so there’s no question where his vote would would sit when it came to major decisions that would be to RK’s benefit. Secondly RK was given a vote! I’m of the opinion at this point RK wasn’t even an official member of the league yet, and this vote was to help determine if it was even possible, does it surprise anyone to hear that RK voted in RK favor?

    [fast forward to the present]

    RK is 6 - 0 in the league, even if they are significantly more skilled than everyone else in the league it can’t be denied that they enter the field with enough of a handicap that it raises concern.

    This coming Sunday RK scrims MM. MM’s initial stance was to avoid the scrim altogether, our intentions are to use this league as an event for our members, a chance for us to play together in a competitive environment that’s fair, and fun. Last league MM lost every game, but we stuck around, and we enjoyed it. Because it was fair, and fun! The league now; however, is not fair and thus not as fun, this is how we justified our intention of sitting out of the scrim with RK. We re-discussed the situation as a whole and have come to the conclusion that we should attempt to work with RK to ours, and hopefully everyone’s benefit.

    We’ve spoken with Blaine and explained that as of now we are unable to make their scrim times, just as they are unable to make ours. So we suggested that we together set new time that everyone is able to make. We’ve contacted Blaine in an attempt at getting us all together so we can negotiate a time that meets everyone’s needs, but have met a brick wall. Blaine’s stance toward negotiation is very apprehensive, i’ve attempted speaking to him and he’ll choose to not respond to me. When Liquid speaks with him he’s uncompromising, we reach a point where we invite him into TeamSpeak our a group voice conversation and he stops responding. We’ve contacted GB in a hope at getting a third party to mediate this conflict, and explain our situation. As it is GB doesn’t respond to me, he’ll only speak with Liquid. Liquid’s conversations have been equally rewarding: The moment it reaches a point where we might make some actual leeway towards the rest of the NA scrimming community’s benefit they close down, and repeat the same nonsense it seems we can’t get past. “We voted on this already!” etc.

    This is a very real problem that needs a solution. MM is not comfortable with taking a loss because RK is unwilling to set a time that meets everyone’s needs.

    When did this transition from the Kill Them All: North American League to the Kill Them All: North Americans and one European with a handicap League? Are there not enough European clans to create a separate League? Shouldn’t the one clan bend to meet the needs of the five others? Or are we in the right having five sacrifice for one?

    EDIT: When I first created my account on this forums I wouldn’t receive a confirmation email, even after trying multiple addresses over multiple days. After getting Liquid to pester GB (because he wouldn’t respond to me) I was able to get an account. Right now other members of MM are trying to sign up to this forum so they can respond to this and having the same problem. Can someone help?



  • The Ping Argument:

    Every time this discussion occurs the conversation about ping happens. There is a lot of confusion surrounding how ping works in this game, and i’d like to clarify.

    In a normal league gaming scenario ping is able to be irrelevant to a degree, this is in part because of the distribution of European players in North American leagues, in part because leagues tend to form based around time zones out of courtesy to the members to avoid dilemmas like these, and in part to the smaller groups succumbing to the larger group’s time constraints.

    In Age of Chivalry we’re met with a very strange scenario. There is one league, limited population, and groups of players based around time zones, where the smaller group is not willing to succumb to the larger group’s time. This creates an environment such as:
    North Americans play on North American servers with primarily North Americans. Thus North Americans are accustomed to fighting against North American ping ranges.
    Europeans play on North American servers with primarily North Americans. Thus Europeans are accustomed to fighting against North American ping ranges.
    Then we take North Americans and pit them against Europeans. So Europeans are accustomed to their enemy’s ping ranges, while North Americans are not.

    This creates a ping scenario that is to the Europeans benefit.



  • I 100% agree with Steve. I do not want to waste my sunday playing a game, I want to be out playing another game. I propose a compromise, when RK is home they have that time and when they are away we have our time. I understand that this would be confusing(potentially) but quite frankly the teams have a week to prepare and can tell the fucking time to their players.



  • Considering this post is largely directed at myself, I’ll do my best to address a few of your concerns and hopefully resolve this situation and help you out.

    The problem is NA scrim groups aren’t able to sufficiently practice and prepare for the scrim.

    I have to dispute this argument. Based on both personal experience and from what I’ve seen of the AOC community in the past five years, the majority of clans like to have practice nights, or certain days where they get together for an hour and practice. I have no idea if this is currently the case with MM, but no one is forcing you to run your practices right before the match starts. You could very easily spend an hour anytime during the week we are set to fight and practice at your own hours for however long you wish. All maps for all matches for the 16 week period have already been decided upon, as you know. KoTrT for example, I noticed was almost practicing every other night, for three weeks before this season even started (not suggesting this should apply to you too, just providing an example). Vanquish and Royal Knights are both very old clans, so we don’t really run practices anymore, we just spend a short while discussing strategies and then see how it goes. Perhaps you could consider alternative practice times? Just a suggestion.

    At the beginning of the second league there was a vote that involved one representative from each of the six clans in the league. Liquid (Clan Council member of MM) voted no on this decision, regardless the decision passed. GB sums up the result of this vote as: “Since we are primarily NA based we’ve made a compromise. Firstly, all scrims will take place on NA servers. Secondly, all scrims against RK will take place at 3:00pm EST.” The issue is this is not a compromise; 3:00pm EST is an ideal time for RK to scrim, they are able to practice for ample time before hand, scrim with all their top players, and fight against an opponent who has not had the same luxuries.

    I don’t ever actually recall a vote for the entry of RK to the League. KoTrT had re-formed and the league required a 6th clan to operate. gB approached me and we discussed the compromise and came to an agreement. You’re correct that 3 EST is an ideal time for RK, I’d also say that 3 EST is also an ideal time for other US clans especially considering it is practically impossible that we can scrim at 9 EST, which is 3 in the morning for our players and the majority of these players have work in the morning too. Would MM be prepared to scrim at 3 in the morning? Do you understand why we simply cannot scrim at that time?

    When it comes to NA vs EU vs RUS vs AUS games, in the entire gaming community, this is how scrims work. From CSS to TF2 to DOD etc, someone somewhere has to make a compromise and it has to be a logical compromise. If I was asked to prepare a scrim team for 3pm on a Sunday, could I do it? Yes, I’ll happily do it and I wouldn’t say there are “luxuries” for the opposing team for doing so.

    From your first game, to the games with the other four US clans, we haven’t had an issue with the time yet, and I personally can’t understand why this issue is cropping up over one month after the League started when it was made absolutely clear our matches would take place at 3pm EST and this was said one month before Season 2 started. Is there an issue which prevents you from finding the players this Sunday? We could agree on a different day if that’s the case.

    Regular North American scrim clans are unable to adequately prepare for the scrims, MM for example doesn’t have the ability to practice before the scrim, and not nearly all of our members are able to make the scrim time.

    As above, one suggestion might be to move the practice to before the day of the match and to my knowledge, this hasn’t been the case with other US clans yet, at least I haven’t heard an issue anyway.

    I’d also like to point out how biased this vote truly was, of the six involved in the vote I can account for two that were truly biased. GB initially invited RK to join the league; I imagine to help his own personal league flourish, so there’s no question where his vote would would sit when it came to major decisions that would be to RK’s benefit. Secondly RK was given a vote! I’m of the opinion at this point RK wasn’t even an official member of the league yet, and this vote was to help determine if it was even possible, does it surprise anyone to hear that RK voted in RK favor?

    RK was not given a vote for the entrance of the league. That was up to the other five clans. If a vote came from us somewhere along the lines, it certainly never came from me.

    This coming Sunday RK scrims MM. MM’s initial stance was to avoid the scrim altogether, our intentions are to use this league as an event for our members, a chance for us to play together in a competitive environment that’s fair, and fun. Last league MM lost every game, but we stuck around, and we enjoyed it. Because it was fair, and fun!

    I completely agree with you that the league should be fair and fun, I wouldn’t dispute that at all, but it does have to cater to all those involved, and we didn’t ask to join the league, we were invited to form the 6th team.

    The league now; however, is not fair and thus not as fun, this is how we justified our intention of sitting out of the scrim with RK. We re-discussed the situation as a whole and have come to the conclusion that we should attempt to work with RK to ours, and hopefully everyone’s benefit.

    Great, we are more than happy to discuss times, we did that with another US clan too. There is a limit though, we are between 6 and 10 hours ahead of the US and people have work in the morning.

    We’ve spoken with Blaine and explained that as of now we are unable to make their scrim times, just as they are unable to make ours. So we suggested that we together set new time that everyone is able to make. We’ve contacted Blaine in an attempt at getting us all together so we can negotiate a time that meets everyone’s needs, but have met a brick wall. Blaine’s stance toward negotiation is very apprehensive, i’ve attempted speaking to him and he’ll choose to not respond to me. When Liquid speaks with him he’s uncompromising, we reach a point where we invite him into TeamSpeak our a group voice conversation and he stops responding.

    I’ve been approached by 4 MM members all asking to re-schedule to the same time, 9 EST, and I have explained over and over this is not possible, I’m sorry, but it’s just not.

    This is a very real problem that needs a solution. MM is not comfortable with taking a loss because RK is unwilling to set a time that meets everyone’s needs.

    I have to disagree with that point. Normally we would scrim at 5 or 6 GMT (to cater to the Russians), we have put this forward to 8 GMT to allow time for those on the West Coast.

    When did this transition from the Kill Them All: North American League to the Kill Them All: North Americans and one European with a handicap League? Are there not enough European clans to create a separate League? Shouldn’t the one clan bend to meet the needs of the five others? Or are we in the right having five sacrifice for one?

    EU is not in favour of a league at this point due to us only having three clans, but that’s irrelevant. KoTrT would not have been able to participate unless a 6th team was introduced OR the way the league functioned was altered, such as to make one clan not fight a particular week but to my knowledge it was agreed to just introduce us.

    Right now other members of MM are trying to sign up to this forum so they can respond to this and having the same problem. Can someone help?

    PM me usernames which require account activation and I’ll take care of it.

    RE: The Ping Argument

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Are you saying the Brits/Europeans/Russians have an advantage on the US servers and we shouldn’t be in the League for that reason? Could you enlighten me more about what you’re getting at here? If you’d like to play us on EU/RUS/AUS/CHN/JAP/KOR servers, we’d relish that challenge too!

    I propose a compromise, when RK is home they have that time and when they are away we have our time.

    RK are never home. We will be playing on US servers for this league. Unless Vq or KoTrT would like to play one game on an EU server (and it is entirely their choice), we will not be pressing any server changes whatsoever. As above, I’m sorry, but we can’t play at 3 in the morning.

    You fight us only 4 times in the whole of 2012, and one match has already taken place. Is it really too much to ask you take time out of your ‘normal’ schedule?

    I could probably, if anything, do it one hour later, but I’d have to let my Finns down and I’d have to talk to the others to see whether they can make it.

    Edit: Just been told I’m not allowed to negotiate times. Sorry.



  • @Martin:

    You’re correct that 3 EST is an ideal time for RK, I’d also say that 3 EST is also an ideal time for other US clans especially considering it is practically impossible that we can scrim at 9 EST

    I don’t see the connection between what’s ideal for US clans and your availability at scrimming at 9 EST. That’s the whole problem.

    As far as our practices go, we host mash ups on Tuesday, practice Thursday, Saturday, and an hour beforehand Sunday. NA players are capable of having the sheer numbers at the scrims, as experience has shown, yet not able to adequately prepare. It seems I have to keep repeating myself.

    Kotrt would have been allowed to scrim, there’s nothing wrong with a 5 clan league. Every 3rd week one clan gets a Sunday off, it’s not difficult, and if you’ve experienced late league play there’s a point where it gets tedious and a week off would have been a godsend.

    The ping argument is relevant because every time this conversation between US and EU arises there is a conversation about ping, and in this situation the ping difference is to RK’s favor.

    As an update I have finally been able to speak with GB, Liquid was able to get a group chat going and invite me, really it was me talking at a brick wall. Then the two of us bickering.

    -Admin Edit - Private chats don’t need to be made public. Mike.



  • Locked as this is no longer a matter for forums.


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