Realistic weapon physics?



  • Short, sweet, and simple, as I could go on for days how each weapon affects armor types differently.
    My thoughts.
    Swords - effectively useless upon plate, maybe a stun with slight damage, but landing on an unarmored opponent would be slaughter.

    Warhammer- crushing/crippling blows to the flexible armors (mailles of all types, brigandine, wisby style coats, and leather) and have an option to use the pick end for plate, possibly getting lodged reducing movement speeds and attack speeds?

    Maces- crippling crushing blows, and ignore armor for this as well?

    Axes- remove limbs, but glance off plates and certain mailles?

    Flailes- same as maces, but requiring a certain amount of movement before maximum damage? (more damage at end of swing vs initial) and vs shield, aimed right, would stop on haft of flail, but the flail head ignore the shield doing half damage? (this was the purpose of flails after discovery as a weapon)

    Bows- ignore armor at certain ranges (closer would be low damage on plate but ignore weaker armors)

    Javelins- knockback effect, ignore all armor but slow to throw?

    Crossbow- ignore armor (weaker with range)
    Siege crossbow- ignore shield/armor (weaker with range)

    Just some thoughts i had



  • Discussed 1723861565214436 times in other threads.



  • Something told me as much, but it was more of a question really than anything else.

    The search-bar and I dont get along very well :/



  • Try searching “Ideas and suggestions”, theres a lot of dedicated threads and some suggestions in other ones. Besides, of what i saw from your post, You dont have idea about realistic weapon physics :) I mean I also had some ideas about how weapons “really” affect different types of armor etc. But there are a lot of people who knows better, they are experienced, educated or just passionates of that way of hurting people ;P So you can learn a lot. And i dont think mechanics will change in that phase of game-developement.

    And one more thing - axe is very deadly against plate armor :)



  • @yush:

    And one more thing - axe is very deadly against plate armor :)

    You SCA? It isnt actually. Armor is heat treated to withstand most anything thrown at it, an axe quite frankly just glances off, unless you refer to chain maile, of which it just eats.

    Theres physics talk amoungst shit armor, then there is the real deal (shit i make) i have yet to find a more efficient manner to puncture plate than a close to needle point, quite frankly, i doubt you actually use these items like I have my entire life. And I am not talking the slow crap you see at faires, I have sent quite a number of ‘tards’ to the hospital because they were wearing crap armor.
    Your life is dependent upon the quality of your armor, if an axe goes through your armor, you need a new smith.
    As a Blacksmith/Re-enactor, I stand behind my products with more confidence than any car manufacturer.
    By no means is armor indestructable, but a simple axe or even pol-axe cannot penetrate. Do not trust what you see on TV, only trust the trained experts and ‘firey beards’ of the Blacksmithing Community.



  • @Lancebringer:

    @yush:

    And one more thing - axe is very deadly against plate armor :)

    You SCA? It isnt actually. Armor is heat treated to withstand most anything thrown at it, an axe quite frankly just glances off, unless you refer to chain maile, of which it just eats.

    Theres physics talk amoungst shit armor, then there is the real deal (shit i make) i have yet to find a more efficient manner to puncture plate than a close to needle point, quite frankly, i doubt you actually use these items like I have my entire life. And I am not talking the slow crap you see at faires, I have sent quite a number of ‘tards’ to the hospital because they were wearing crap armor.
    Your life is dependent upon the quality of your armor, if an axe goes through your armor, you need a new smith.
    As a Blacksmith/Re-enactor, I stand behind my products with more confidence than any car manufacturer.
    By no means is armor indestructable, but a simple axe or even pol-axe cannot penetrate. Do not trust what you see on TV, only trust the trained experts and ‘firey beards’ of the Blacksmithing Community.

    I SCA. And although levels of armor vary, good luck replicating the same armor that was used during medieval times when it comes to metals. I don’t care how good a blacksmith you are, good chance your doing quite a few things that diverge from smithing techniques of the times you believe your using. Honestly, I have NEVER seen an SCA warrior using all correct armor for whatever time period they were using, unless they are using early Renaissance armor; which isn’t supposed to be in the SCA.
    The reason is simple. Modern materials can be used under or in substitute for older armor pieces in exchange for more protection.

    Also, when you say that you’re a re-enactor, I hope you’re not talking about the SCA. The SCA is in no way re-enacting anything in combat. It’s about fun, and reliving old ways. Not trying to recreate the battles of the past.
    Alright, I’m done flaming. So I can understand more about what you’re talking about, what armor are you saying axes cannot get through? Are you talking full Steel Cuirass? Half plate? Slat Armor?

    Also, these were invented for a reason: http://www.heavenlyswords.com/images/P/A05.jpg

    EDIT PS: Hope your not a Tuchux. Might have to beat you into the ground when the game releases.



  • No, I am in no way SCA. I am amateur just interested in topic. My thoughts about axes were the same - that they will slip on the plate. But in some discussion on that forum I was told by a guy that knew medieval weapons characteristic (or sounded like one) that axe is very deadly against plate for couple of reasons. If i remember well, they were:

    • axe can cut off elements of armor (pauldrons, greaves)
    • well aimed axe - blow is very devastating, when it lands between plates, where one plate combines with other (my english suck and i am trying to explain it as well as i can).
    • axe is very heavy and can bend and destroy armor, though it can stuck in one.
    • axe often has a spike on the other side - which is effective against armor
    • axe cut through chainmail / brigandine easily.

    If any of those are false - i will be glad to know which and why.

    And as Sir Agmund said - quality of armor in medieval times differs in many ways from what we can smith now.

    Cheerz.



  • I want to look smart too :D
    Brigandine is a bunch of plates riveted to the leather/wool vest and historical accurate brigantines have mostly each plate slide on the next one.Comparing cuirass and brigandine(visbi) I must say that they differ only that if someone falls on you wearing brig, you are going to feel it(own experience). I’d say that the well aimed axe hit has more chances on cuirass because it gets all the potential energy when brigandine just bends.



  • @SirAgmund:

    @Lancebringer:

    @yush:

    And one more thing - axe is very deadly against plate armor :)

    You SCA? It isnt actually. Armor is heat treated to withstand most anything thrown at it, an axe quite frankly just glances off, unless you refer to chain maile, of which it just eats.

    Theres physics talk amoungst shit armor, then there is the real deal (shit i make) i have yet to find a more efficient manner to puncture plate than a close to needle point, quite frankly, i doubt you actually use these items like I have my entire life. And I am not talking the slow crap you see at faires, I have sent quite a number of ‘tards’ to the hospital because they were wearing crap armor.
    Your life is dependent upon the quality of your armor, if an axe goes through your armor, you need a new smith.
    As a Blacksmith/Re-enactor, I stand behind my products with more confidence than any car manufacturer.
    By no means is armor indestructable, but a simple axe or even pol-axe cannot penetrate. Do not trust what you see on TV, only trust the trained experts and ‘firey beards’ of the Blacksmithing Community.

    I SCA. And although levels of armor vary, good luck replicating the same armor that was used during medieval times when it comes to metals. I don’t care how good a blacksmith you are, good chance your doing quite a few things that diverge from smithing techniques of the times you believe your using. Honestly, I have NEVER seen an SCA warrior using all correct armor for whatever time period they were using, unless they are using early Renaissance armor; which isn’t supposed to be in the SCA.
    The reason is simple. Modern materials can be used under or in substitute for older armor pieces in exchange for more protection.

    Also, when you say that you’re a re-enactor, I hope you’re not talking about the SCA. The SCA is in no way re-enacting anything in combat. It’s about fun, and reliving old ways. Not trying to recreate the battles of the past.
    Alright, I’m done flaming. So I can understand more about what you’re talking about, what armor are you saying axes cannot get through? Are you talking full Steel Cuirass? Half plate? Slat Armor?

    Also, these were invented for a reason: http://www.heavenlyswords.com/images/P/A05.jpg

    EDIT PS: Hope your not a Tuchux. Might have to beat you into the ground when the game releases.

    No I dont SCA, I laugh at the SCA, Im LIVING HISTORY, meaning, same tools, same creation origins. Ive partaken in making iron from the ground up (gathering raw ore and smelting, then making whats called shear steel and blister steel, which is completely different from modern bessemer steel).
    The various steels allow for properties to be applied to the metal that cannot be made or applied with modern steels.
    Also, Armors were high carbon steel, to date there is only 1 company i know of that makes traditional pattern high carbon steel armor harnesses that not only provide complete protection, but full range of mobility.
    Here is a detailed article for your reading.
    http://www.livesteelarmor.com/how/cas.html
    http://www.livesteelarmor.com/index.html
    That is the main-site link, they no longer take orders (30 years of production)
    http://www.livesteelarmor.com/beware.html
    Read this for common mistakes by most manufacturers.
    When I talk about axes vs plate, the plate generalization encompasses full plate harness.
    Take this German Field Armour for your mental picture.

    Also, please note during discussion, the AXE in reference is to the actual blade of an axe.
    Also, please also note that a VAST majority of axes were in no way equipped with a pick type back like the pictures you linked.
    This is an ACTUAL 13th century axe

    Axes would, and still, cut through mailles, chain, scale, and splinted.
    The Wisby Coat of Plates

    Is, so far as known to me and as documented, the only piecemail armor to NOT have been able to be penetrated by axe or sword.
    Also please keep in mind most swords made were made of iron, not for lack therein, but because the steel was better put to use in armours.
    A large percentage of swords were pattern welded.
    http://www.powning.com/jake/images/1sindin1.jpgThis sword here is an exact replica of a 9th century viking migration sword.
    The pattern of the steel and iron, as well as the hilt furniture are ALL historic.
    quite a few swords were elegant pieces of art.
    All of this aside.
    Gentleman, you all stand correct IN A WAY
    The spike formed on the spine of that axe was used in warhammers to penetrate the plate armor, but keep in mind, there is not enough weight to push the spike the full length into the plate, thus becoming a mass hinderance to the wearer and there-by reducing mobility.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhknaG9ifbs&feature=related
    This video showcases the warhammer against poorly made armor, but the result is very similar, I am having a VERY difficult time finding a video I saw that really showed what we demo at Medieval Faires. It shows that the warhammer, in fact, cannot be pulled from the chest once ‘inserted’.
    When it comes down to it, the medieval period had a vast array of weapons at their disposal, and its far too many to incorperate in one game for the release, Maybe some mods or something down the road will add them, but as for my original statement.
    The axe blade itself would not penetrate the full plate armor or helmets of the medieval period.
    Its almost impossible to demonstrate against historical pieces as the smiths who make them want an arm and a leg for them, and thus would not be financially wise to use as a demo piece.
    But as far as tests have gone thus far in my Re-Enactment group, Axes are not the ‘anti plate’ weapon of choice, its the Bodkin tipped arrow and the Warhammer

    @yush:

    No, I am in no way SCA. I am amateur just interested in topic. My thoughts about axes were the same - that they will slip on the plate. But in some discussion on that forum I was told by a guy that knew medieval weapons characteristic (or sounded like one) that axe is very deadly against plate for couple of reasons. If i remember well, they were:

    • axe can cut off elements of armor (pauldrons, greaves)
    • well aimed axe - blow is very devastating, when it lands between plates, where one plate combines with other (my english suck and i am trying to explain it as well as i can).
    • axe is very heavy and can bend and destroy armor, though it can stuck in one.
    • axe often has a spike on the other side - which is effective against armor
    • axe cut through chainmail / brigandine easily.

    If any of those are false - i will be glad to know which and why.

    And as Sir Agmund said - quality of armor in medieval times differs in many ways from what we can smith now.

    Cheerz.

    The axe, if delivered just right (nigh of impossible) COULD in theory (less than 5% chance) cut the straps that hold parts of the armor on, but since they are all secured VERY well, the chance is almost impossible.
    Axe is not that heavy, and cannot bend hardened armor, a dent can form from the Warhammer or similar ‘product’. If the axe bending armor was the case, then a sword could as well, as they both weigh about the same.
    Axes do not have spikes very often, its VERY hard to make an axe with a spike due to the forging process being quite a distinctive pain in the ass.
    Axes do cut through mailles as I stated above.
    Medieval weapons and armor are STILL far superiour to what we can make now.
    I belong to a group of smiths vieing to revive and re-discover the lost metal arts only handed down in word or practice. The metals then are quite enigmatic to us, still out-performing modern weapons, but we are getting VERY VERY close, almost too hard to tell the difference.

    Referencing back to Wisby Plates, here is a diagram of documented killing blows in the Wisby battle.
    http://www.kriegsturm.com/albums/equal-time/VisbyBattleWounds.sized.jpg
    Note they did not include arrow wounds to the head, but as far as I have read (correct me please if I am wrong) but they did not find any in the chest.



  • i feel like i’m watching the history channel, good times. was there a reason for the lower legs to be as vulnerable as they appear to be in that diagram? were they not wearing greaves at that time? people may have been knocked down and scrambling around trying to hit what they could down there, but then i wouldn’t expect them to have the power to penetrate the armor.



  • Lancebringer, as for your primary question, devs should answer but as far as i know, damage system is based on hitpoints, so certain weapon hitting with certain speed a type of armor makes xx damage. When damage gets to 0 - u die. I havent seen another system so far, so it is possible that its included here. Precise calculation of weapon damage would probably be too “heavy” for server to handle. And will be too hard to make. All above is mine thoughts and game - experience, so last word should belong to developers.

    Moreover, i would like to thank You for bunch of facts, it was pleasure to read it. Now i feel wise ;) And afraid of warhammer :P

    One thing is worth noticing - in the “visby” diagram, no wounds were in the head / chest region O_O
    WHY???

    Edit: Going deeper into the ColdSteel movies i found:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saG6iqTT … re=related
    and THAT’s why i want real Great Sword in CMW, not just petty AoC bastard sword, over which i prefer voulge.



  • “petty AoC bastard sword” i believe masons had some great flamberge(“Is that sword not too big for you?”) :o



  • petty AoC bastard sword

    i believe masons had some great flamberge(“Is that sword not too big for you?”) :o

    for realistic physics i can say that would be nice to add durability for armour so it takes some amount of damage delivered on itself (differs from weapon/armour type, for example mace damage will generally evade armor, while swords are higher damage but more of it dealt to the armor (will require some thinking on it because i am wrong a little)), then breaks (some animations for it would be awesome , imagine cracked cuirass or helmet and blood flowing from it) and all the damage delivered there will be 100% to the player . Im not sure how will it influence the productivity, 5 hitboxes (like head , 2hands,torso and 1 for legs) is not much isn’t it ?



  • That flamberge can be wielded along with shield, and two- handed. So still i believe its kinda bastard :)

    Yeah, dented armor would be something nice to see :)



  • Dented armor would be interesting indeed. Well… so long as the decaps remain this game is bound to succeed one way or some other.



  • @yush:

    That flamberge can be wielded along with shield, and two- handed. So still i believe its kinda bastard :)

    Yeah, dented armor would be something nice to see :)

    what the fuck are you eating!?

    you are partially correct.
    As this image shows

    Flamberge means a flame blade, or a wavy blade, typically seen in Landsknect swords, not as seen above, but that is a landsknecht, and some did carry blame blades.
    But of course, when one refers to a flamberge most think of this.

    Which was as tall as a man, and could fell both horse and rider in one blow.
    This sword, in its typical sense, could not be wielded one handed.
    Lest you be built bigger than ulf?

    Be that as it may, I doubt we will see Flamberge, their usage post-dates CMW



  • What do you mean with “what are you eating” question?

    Yes, that “big sword” is what i mean i would like to see. Powerful as hell.
    I AM amateur, i am learning from you :)
    Thanks for info then.

    Greetz.



  • The “what are you eating” comes from your phrasing of one handed use. It was a joke ;)
    Thanks for the compliment friend.
    Have any other questions? I can answer all that i can.



  • Thank You. I will gladly use your knowledge to learn something :)

    First please answer my previous question:
    “One thing is worth noticing - in the “visby” diagram, no wounds were marked in the head / chest region. why?”

    And can’t wait to fight You on the field of battle :)

    BTW. Is it you on that photo with big warrior in full plate without helmet?



  • The head and chest regions were covered in armor, i guarantee you there were fatal wounds delivered to the head and chest, but not by swords. These wounds were only inflicted by maces, warhammers, and bodkin tipped arrows. But this is not indicitive of the norm, those kill wounds are few and far between, most of the arrows struck soft flesh, not actually hitting bone, those wound indications are still left ON THE BONE! There is even indication that archers were active within the battle, as one poor soul recieved an arrow through the bottom of his jaw, protruding out the top of his head (most likely stumbled and fell, archer took advantage)
    Dont get me wrong, the Wisby armor is awesome, its just so many peasants were wearing it, it was less tiresome on the knights to bleed them rather than force a weapon through armor.
    The Battle of Wisby was really a Massacre. buncha untrained peasants vs castle garrison. Sad really.

    No that photo is not me.
    That is a customer of that company who has a list of safety issues/concerns and is a major source of very accurate and very detailed information.
    These are me
    https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/208102_1003401936445_6516_n.jpg
    https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/196495_1009301883940_547_n.jpg
    https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/198619_1009301803938_3117_n.jpg


Log in to reply