Please please please please fix flinch



  • Recovery/idle flinch.

    I grow tired of watching 2H weapons complete attacks in between the spaces of my 1H combos. I also don’t care for hit trade situations where my 1H weapon combo is stopped because of its shorter attack animations, while Greatsword/Claymore/whatever happily gets to finish their combo because my hit came before their last attack animation finished.

    This is the only thing I’d really like to see fixed. I couldn’t care less about new weapons, new skins or new maps. This is the single most infuriating thing about this game right now, and it needs to go away.

    Please, please, please Torn Banner! Please!



  • I agree completely. I was in a ffa today with a rank 2 that seemed to do it every single time, and being unskilled he’d spam endlessly and make weird movements. Even if you broke into his swings, hitting him didn’t matter because he’d swing the moment you hit him again. Now I know I can just deal with it, but the fact that it’s unpredictable, and not intended, puts me far more on edge, and wastes shit tonnes of energy 'cause I have to cancel my combo whenever they swing after being hit.

    I grabbed a maul and decided to spam really really hard, woe and behold I can pull the same crap that happened before the patch (swinging after being hit, trading blow with more hp and dmg), but only working 80% of the time (spamming intensely).
    I bet if I made a macro to spam even faster, I’d make that at least 95% of the time.



  • Absolutely agree. This needs to be fixed immediately. Top priority.



  • Working flinch would be great!



  • Attack, dodge back, dodge forward, attack.

    Or.

    Attack, parry, attack.

    Or

    Attack, parry, kick, attack.

    If you’re able to hit someone and then hit them again before they can recover at all. How is that fair?



  • @ReMixx:

    If you’re able to hit someone and then hit them again before they can recover at all. How is that fair?

    Parrying doesn’t need a change. You just shouldn’t be able to attack instantly after being hit.



  • @Nerfed:

    @ReMixx:

    If you’re able to hit someone and then hit them again before they can recover at all. How is that fair?

    Parrying doesn’t need a change. You just shouldn’t be able to attack instantly after being hit.

    Are you talking about hitting the enemy after their windup and their follow-through hits you right after you hit them?



  • I disagree. I have NO problem with the flinch system. It works exactly as it was designed to work. Your frustration comes from not having a good grasp of attack animations and backswing times. You also should be aware of your opponent’s options at all times and judge your actions accordingly. I know exactly when I can cancel my opponent’s attacks. It is NOT random. “idle flinch” is NOT needed.
    It is not an unhealthy mechanic and creates more interesting combat decisions and serves as an option that can punish players who over-extend. Your argument that it is “unpredictable” and “random” is simply not true. If you hit someone within the backswing part of their attack animation, they flinch. It is a simple, easily understood mechanic.

    The flinch system does not need to be reworked just because you can’t manage to not get dumpstered by LMB spammers.



  • It’s quite simple really this is how flinch should work.

    When you take damage there is a .5* second global attack lockout where you cannot start an attack, you can still parry and do any other action but attack. The lockout should be damage based scaling from .25 dagger to .5 maul

    If you are hit during attack wind up the attack is aborted, if you are hit during the queuing of a combo attack that combo attack is aborted.

    Both of these stop the issue where you hit someone at the last millisecond of there attack recovery and they completely avoid the idle flinch and are able to hit trade with you. Also using combo attacks to get in a free hit by taking the hit during the release of the swing then before they have recovered hitting them with the combo following.



  • @demonwing:

    I disagree. I have NO problem with the flinch system. It works exactly as it was designed to work.

    No, it doesn’t.

    I’m not talking about interrupting people during their windup, which does work. I’m talking about the lack of recovery/idle flinch. I’m talking about perfect hit trades into double combos not working with 1H setups, but working as intended for the larger 2H weapons because of the longer time needed to complete the animation. The character is immune to flinch during this very short period of time, between his recovery and idle, and between attack and recovery and so may combo into a second swing if your hit comes during this time.

    You can really replicate this with any weapon in a 1VS1 regardless of setup, whether it be 1H or 2H if you get the timing correct. It’s just more noticeable with 2H weapons because of their longer attack animations.

    I understand and recognize all the mechanics and how they work, and I’m saying sometimes this situation happens and it’s infuriating. I’ve dumped enough time into this game to know when I’ve been straight up outplayed: 200+ hours. I get beaten all the time and am definitely not the best player out there. Trust me, I know when I’m beaten fair and square by superior players.

    But I can also see and discern when the mechanics aren’t working correctly… when something happens that is off and was not intended to happen, which is why I’m even typing this now. It’s not as punishing when playing a Knight, but drop down to an Archer or MAA and it becomes life and death most of the time.

    Now, it’s quite possible the situation I described above is how the developers intended the game to work. People can que up a combo or attack, a fraction of a second after being hit, in which case it’s simply a design choice that I disagree with. However, I don’t think this is the case, which is why I’m even bothering.



  • @demonwing:

    I disagree. I have NO problem with the flinch system. It works exactly as it was designed to work. Your frustration comes from not having a good grasp of attack animations and backswing times. You also should be aware of your opponent’s options at all times and judge your actions accordingly. I know exactly when I can cancel my opponent’s attacks. It is NOT random. “idle flinch” is NOT needed.
    It is not an unhealthy mechanic and creates more interesting combat decisions and serves as an option that can punish players who over-extend. Your argument that it is “unpredictable” and “random” is simply not true. If you hit someone within the backswing part of their attack animation, they flinch. It is a simple, easily understood mechanic.

    The flinch system does not need to be reworked just because you can’t manage to not get dumpstered by LMB spammers.

    If you get hit by an archer without parrying then you can get a free hit on him if you attack immediatly after getting hit. This is of course a huge advantage if you play knight because you can take much more hits then the archer.



  • This is of course a huge advantage if you play knight because you can take much more hits then the archer.

    This is a huge and expensive metal armor with dempfering wool inner. Poor archers have just leather jackets and fast legs to avoid hit trade with tincans.



  • It works fine as it is, you do not have to trade blows with a knight as an archer and if you do guess what? You should die!



  • Decided to reigster on these forums specifically so that I could take part in this discussion. It is the single most important thing that needs to be fixed for this game to work.

    Basically, if you are here saying anything like “The flinch system works fine, it only makes you flinch if you are attacked during your windup” etc etc, then you are wrong. The system does NOT work fine. If you played either man-at-arms or archer and stood toe-to-toe with a vanguard or knight you would see this. It is incredibly unfair and completely unpredictable.

    Comments such as this:@Blackjack:

    It works fine as it is, you do not have to trade blows with a knight as an archer and if you do guess what? You should die!

    are exactly what I’m talking about. We have someone who clearly does not play archer or MAA and does not understand the issue. To clarify: the way the system should work is because the archer’s dagger is WAY faster than the knight’s greatsword, the archer should be able to string together a fast combo with the knight unable to attack until he blocks. What is happening instead, however, is that the archer lands an attack but the knight does not flinch and is immediately able to attack; this attack will connect at about the same time as the archer’s second dagger hit. This is why you are wrong, Blackjack. The archer is not intentionally trading blows; it happens because of the faulty system.

    This absolutely must be fixed, please, please, please. Men-at-arms and archers are incredibly shortchanged because of this.



  • archer’s dagger is WAY faster than the knight’s greatsword

    So blocking greatsword with this supr fasta dagger is not a problem. BTW in M&B such small weapons like dagger or knife can’t block.



  • @BDrift:

    archer’s dagger is WAY faster than the knight’s greatsword

    So blocking greatsword with this supr fasta dagger is not a problem. BTW in M&B such small weapons like dagger or knife can’t block.

    I don’t care about M&B. Why would I? This is a completely different game.

    The lack of understanding in this post is just staggering. You don’t get the issue.



  • @BDrift:

    archer’s dagger is WAY faster than the knight’s greatsword

    So blocking greatsword with this supr fasta dagger is not a problem. BTW in M&B such small weapons like dagger or knife can’t block.

    If people blocked with their actual weapons they’d wreck them very quickly. The concept of parrying is to change the trajectory of the opponent’s weapon so it misses you, not stop the full force of a weapon, that’s blocking, and one of the reasons you can’t counter-attack from a block, or at least so I think.



  • @Bloodhead:

    To clarify: the way the system should work is because the archer’s dagger is WAY faster than the knight’s greatsword, the archer should be able to string together a fast combo with the knight unable to attack until he blocks. What is happening instead, however, is that the archer lands an attack but the knight does not flinch and is immediately able to attack; this attack will connect at about the same time as the archer’s second dagger hit.

    This is a question of game balance, not of realism. I don’t imagine you have to worry much about a dagger, no matter how fast it is, when you are wearing plate from head to toe. Why bother checking your attack to block when you know you’re protected anyway?

    I think the important question here is should an archer/MAA have a chance against a knight up close and personal and what are the alternatives if not?

    Personally I think flinch should be ‘fixed’ or at least altered as is being suggested here, especially if that way it is behaving at the moment is not intended and leave everything else as is.

    Other options I can think of are slowing knights down and speeding archers up so kiting is easier. This could be achieved by altering overall movement speed (probably a boring option) or introducing a stamina drain with sprinting. I.e. Heavier armour means faster drain so archer/MAA has a speed advantage, though I don’t think this would be a particularly enjoyable option either. Both would throw up balance issues elsewhere.



  • Flinch is very unpredictable atm, and actually turns me off attempting any form of Archer melee, sometimes I will be able to get my full combo off on the knight and flinch him, other times I will hit him in the same manner and no flinch will occur, leading to my death.

    You can pretty much replicate the results by finding a swingspammer and using an Archer secondary against him, I guarantee flinch will only work half of the time.

    Fix it, please.



  • The problem with what some of you are suggesting about things like daggers causing flinch when hitting someone not in a windup is that you’d render 2h weapons useless. You could just chain dagger strikes or other fast 1h weapons endlessly on knights/vanguards as they’d essentially be stunlocked. You have to approach 1v1 as MAA/Archer vs knight/vanguard as more of a fencing match. You have to hit and run, if you try to go toe to toe with them then you should die each and every time.


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