How to fix look down overheads without breaking anything



  • Hey everyone there’s been a lot of concern with how look down overheads are accelerating the attack much too fast. My stance on them is they are a part of the real time strikes just the same as standing point blank when thrusting or putting someone at the start of your slash attack. All these scenarios make the attack hit instantly after the wind up timer, making them harder to react to and with the combination of feints a guessing game. But, that doesn’t mean I don’t think it needs to be toned down.

    My proposed fix covers one basic feature - recoil when hitting the ground. Currently you swing into the ground then can instantly parry with no lock out timer. This is in stark contrast to any other attack that has to go through the recovery frame before you can parry (unless you combo feint but that is another issue all together). The combination of these components along with accelerated speed creates the issue we see now.

    Swinging into the ground should lock you out of parrying during the recoil animation.

    This makes it a much more risky move to try to pull off and not something you always do because it’s just free speed with only benefits.

    Thoughts?



  • I like this, it’s an elegant solution which, like you said, doesn’t break anything else.



  • I think you’re on to something here!



  • While I don’t usually have issues dealing with the accelerated overhead strikes (unless the person uses the crouching glitch) this makes sense and would make feints a bit less potent. As it is now, since the time between the release and the actual hit is so low when accelerating it like this, if you know the player will likely do that… there’s even less time to wait and analyze if it’s a feint. Nearly impossible from close range.

    And you could still accelerate it a bit but you’d have to be careful like this. I like it.



  • A bigger problem right now, is how weapons like the halberd register hits with the bottom of the weapon. If you look down and do a overhead with the halberd at point blank range, the bottom part of the weapon is what makes contact. This in itself is not terrible, but what is terrible is how it does the same damage as the top part of the weapon. It needs to be addressed, since so many halberd users do a stab, where even if they miss they are now super close to do a follow-up look down overhead which hits instantly.

    Easy way to see this is action. Face hug someone and do the look down overhead with halberd. You will notice how the bottom is what makes contact. Then do it again, with a little bit of distance an notice how the bottom part misses and the hit does not register until the top comes down.

    Right now halberd uses are abusing the fact that the bottom of the weapon makes contact instantly and registers with the same amount of damage as the top.



  • Interesting solution Knil. I’d like to see this tested out first before I decide if I’m for or against.



  • Deflecting off walls/floor needs to lock you out of parry for reasons entirely unrelated to looking down while overheading.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Deflecting off walls/floor needs to lock you out of parry for reasons entirely unrelated to looking down while overheading.

    Registered to say this man speaks the truth.

    Changing what happens after does not change the fact that it’s still a near instant overhead.



  • @Dare:

    Registered to say this man speaks the truth.

    Changing what happens after does not change the fact that it’s still a near instant overhead.

    It’d make this “tactic” a little riskier if you missed. But it doesn’t solve the exploit itself.

    The point at which you wind up should generally be the same, at least for vertical strikes. Looking down might increase the arc of your swing (so as to actually allow striking targets below you) but it should shorten the higher end of it; ideally, if you tried this exploit you would hit their lower torso/legs, and it would take about as much time if you were to just aim for the head.



  • “speeding up” your swings via mouse dragging is a good mechanic and as it sits I feel like its quite balanced, but looking directly down and doing an overhand is an entire problem in itself.

    I like the mechanic where once you start a swing your mouse movement speed is drastically reduced for a short period of time, this needs to be enforced so that people can’t macro spin at 900 mph via macro for a near unblockable blow. Mouse dragging overall feels like a healthy combat mechanic.

    In specific though looking directly down at the ground and doing an overhand is simply absurd. Both in a realistic and game balance sense.(game balance sense being much more important)

    At the current state of the game you can accelerate your overhand strikes at an exponential rate. Two handers benefit from this more than one handers, overhand strikes with a two hander are near instant as of now.

    There are many ways to deal with both mouse dragging to accelerate your attack and looking down to score a near instant attack. I hope the dev team can come up with a good reworking of some mechanics to remove some of the extremeness of these tactics.

    One solution could be maintaining a consistent start point for attacks. This could work, but might not work due to system limitations/existing mechanics.

    I actually really like the OP posters idea of a parry lock out after hitting the ground/objects. I think it should be implemented asap for both realism and game balance. But that will not solve the issue at large of instant attack by looking down. Additional combat mechanic tweaking will still be needed to bring the game in line.

    I wouldnt have taken the time to type this if I didn’t think this mechanic needed serious looking into, I’m sure the devs are already looking into it.

    Of course this is all just my opinion, take it or leave it xD



  • Could someone here please give evidence that this is a problem and it unbalances the game?



  • How is the lightsaber combat system healthy at all?

    I agree that accelerating/dec. Attacks gives combat more depth, but weapons should not act like lightsabers where slightest touch does full damage. Stab should not do full damage when dragged around. It’s a totally ridiculous mechanic.

    Swings/stabs should not be able to finish if someone is too close to the beginning of weapon release

    By preventing weapons from releasing in this manner, combat will be more complex, as you have a new way to block an attack. you have to learn ways to get around this counter, and footwork and positioning will be more important.



  • Yeah, weapon damage is indeed odd in that sense. The momentum of the weapon should definitely factor in. Doesn’t make sense that, for instance, a spear or polearm can deal damage to me after the actual thrust, just by the tip touching me.



  • Yeah, weapon damage is indeed odd in that sense. The momentum of the weapon should definitely factor in. Doesn’t make sense that, for instance, a spear or polearm can deal damage to me after the actual thrust, just by the tip touching me.



  • @acrh2:

    Could someone here please give evidence that this is a problem and it unbalances the game?

    Truth or dare?



  • @boomandvibe:

    How is the lightsaber combat system healthy at all?

    I agree that accelerating/dec. Attacks gives combat more depth, but weapons should not act like lightsabers where slightest touch does full damage. Stab should not do full damage when dragged around. It’s a totally ridiculous mechanic.

    Swings/stabs should not be able to finish if someone is too close to the beginning of weapon release

    By preventing weapons from releasing in this manner, combat will be more complex, as you have a new way to block an attack. you have to learn ways to get around this counter, and footwork and positioning will be more important.

    This I can definitely agree with, dragging stabs feels really really weird.

    I think this has a very simple solution though - reduce release times of all stabs dramatically. The slowest stab in the game shouldn’t have a longer release than .3. Slightly longer windups and recoveries will compensate for the increase to total attack speed.





  • @SlyGoat:

    I think this has a very simple solution though - reduce release times of all stabs dramatically. The slowest stab in the game shouldn’t have a longer release than .3. Slightly longer windups and recoveries will compensate for the increase to total attack speed.

    Isn’t this going to make the feints even better.



  • @BGrey:

    @SlyGoat:

    I think this has a very simple solution though - reduce release times of all stabs dramatically. The slowest stab in the game shouldn’t have a longer release than .3. Slightly longer windups and recoveries will compensate for the increase to total attack speed.

    Isn’t this going to make the feints even better.

    Feints are weaker on weapons with longer windups actually, especially stabs because the feint recovery on a stab is .4 seconds. So if you feint a stab with a .6 second windup, the other guy has a whole second to react to your feint. In fact even if he parries before your feint, he’ll be able to parry again. Release period really has no bearing on anything but how forgiving your window to aim is - longer releases can be dragged around more.



  • Weapons with longer windups are not easier to parry, unless it’s a new player using them. If you hold the feint until the end of the windup, and the player uses accelerated swings or overhead attacks, it’s virtually impossible to parry because as soon as he feints he’ll attack again, accelerate the attack, and it will nearly certainly hit.

    That’s the only problem I have with accelerated attacks, the fact that combined with feints they are nearly unstoppable. If you reduce accelerated attacks, fighting without feints becomes less viable. But if you reduce feints (cost more stamina and reduce how long you can hold the feint during a windup) then you render accelerated attacks moot.

    The only exception is the crouching bug. When you crouch and look down, not only is the overhead nearly instantaneous, it also changes the weapon hitbox. So even if you know it’s coming and it will be fast, it’s very hard to parry.


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