Weapon modification and improvement



  • Hey there,

    I just joined the forum and wanted to know what thoughts people had on weapons and improvements which can be added as the player gains level and skill. I’m a big fan of current FPS titles and over the last decade weapon customization has really added a new level of gameplay to those titles. I was wondering if you had thought about what this could do for Chivalry as a multiplayer Deathmatch style game. Could small weapon improvements be awarded top players as they advance and gain experience?

    My personal opinion is that features like being able to modify the weight and balance of a weapon could drasticly alter the way someone plays, allowing for a more dynamic and custom experience, It would also encourage players to experiment with combat styles in different situations.

    Thoughts appreciated,
    Cannon



  • I assure You, it was discussed before :) use search, you’ll find it. Conclusion is - there will be different weapons, but without modifying them. Its due to reality. Knight didnt forge his own weapon, and there were standards. Also, there will be a ton of weapons to choose from. You’ll find your own. I cant wait for greatsword and different types of halberds :0



  • I am against giving “higher level players”(aka those who played more) more choices than a newcomer. That’s the most infuriating thing to be killed by things the player cannot have at the same exact moment (even if weapons are balanced, more choice is ALWAYS overpowered).



  • So let’s stay with skill-based concept of the game, rather than all those crappy games where u can upgrade you weapon till the point where skills are not necessary. “OMG I achieved new-born-glittering-ultra obsidian-axe handle. NOW I WILL KILL”.



  • I’m against this suggestion , because i think it woulden’t fit to a game like this and i want everybody to be equal.



  • @Jihell:

    I am against giving “higher level players”(aka those who played more) more choices than a newcomer. That’s the most infuriating thing to be killed by things the player cannot have at the same exact moment (even if weapons are balanced, more choice is ALWAYS overpowered).

    not always, when things are only sidegrades it just gives less options to players who just started, blacklight retribution does this very well.



  • blacklight retribution… looks cool.

    gonna check it out, and its upgrade system :) thx vox



  • Then there’s the TF2 syndrome that helped bring the game to one of the most played games on the internet.
    Having tons of fascinating guns and HATS! and such but rather then having a few OP super weapons you can unlock later in the game. They have a balance system where one gun may have a stronger X factor in exchange for a lesser Y factor. I do realize I am talking about guns and HATS! but surely swords and HELMETS! work similarly from a devs point of view… or not.



  • Still, in TF2 you have to GET the new weapons, you don’t have them available at use instantly, that’s what I meant. Of course OP weapons and such should not be consider.
    For instance you are a new layer, and get killed by a weapon you can only dream to get by fighting for months, and that particular weapon suits your playstyle more than any other one… That’s frustrating.
    And on top of that, in MP, levels and such don’t make ANY sense whatsoever. In SP, yes of course, but when you play against bots, no one minds having many advantage (bots are evil doers). BUT in MP, you all play a soldier, and for the sake of balance, having to unlock gear is absurd. As I said, HAVING MORE CHOICES BECAUSE OF HAVING PLAYED LONGER IS OVERPOWERED.
    Some might say progressing is cool… Yes it is, but then you abandon the very signification of balance between two players, which for me means you have the same weapons / classes, etc. to choose from, and only strategy, thinking and skill can decide who wins, not some absurd arbitrary notion of experience. For even a poor-skilled player can get to the max level and get an advantage (more choices) over other poor-skilled players. And very-skilled players don’t need any kind of advantage to fight equally or lower skilled players.

    I hope I express myself right, and in the right way, to be understood and not appear mad, angry, or anything really.



  • When something is “over powered” it means it is better than a certain item. In blacklight EVERYTHING is a “side grade” which means it just changes the stats, not making the item better or worse. By leveling up and playing you unlock more options to be able to play with and in no ways does that make one player over powered because he may have less health and more, but runs faster, or hit really hard but isn’t very mobile, or is just a generally even guy who has alright armor alright speed and alright damage. I understand you don’t want certain items to just be better than others, i also think that is bad, but saying@Jihell:

    HAVING MORE CHOICES BECAUSE OF HAVING PLAYED LONGER IS OVERPOWERED.

    isn’t right, one does not acquire power with more options if those options are only side grades to the base items you start with.



  • $@King:

    Then there’s the TF2 syndrome that helped bring the game to number one played on the internet.

    Really ?
    When ?
    Prove it .

    Strangely I thought CS 1.6 is the most played & popular FPS , hmm , if we ask valve what will they say or ask in steam forum , I doubt it will be confirmed . & you said ‘‘game number one played on the internet .’’ , which means among any genre .

    I saw some add long time ago , where it was claimed that 1 free asian MMORPG had 500 Million players .



  • @Vox:

    When something is “over powered” it means it is better than a certain item. In blacklight EVERYTHING is a “side grade” which means it just changes the stats, not making the item better or worse. By leveling up and playing you unlock more options to be able to play with and in no ways does that make one player over powered because he may have less health and more, but runs faster, or hit really hard but isn’t very mobile, or is just a generally even guy who has alright armor alright speed and alright damage. I understand you don’t want certain items to just be better than others, i also think that is bad, but saying@Jihell:

    HAVING MORE CHOICES BECAUSE OF HAVING PLAYED LONGER IS OVERPOWERED.

    isn’t right, one does not acquire power with more options if those options are only side grades to the base items you start with.

    I know what those words means.
    The fact is that having more options to choose from, more sidegrades if you prefer, is indeed an unfair advantage, because you can cover a wider variety of situations.

    For instance, you only get 1 class at the beginning of the game… while the others have knights, archers, vanguards and Men at arms, you only have 1 class. This class is not weak, but a new player CANNOT adapt to the situation his team is facing as well as another that has all of those classes to chose from.
    Random situation number one : your team has to defend walls, and you have only men at arms…you can’t shoot at the ennemy, you cant hold them at bay with polearms, and cant “tank”. Moreover, you do not have enough space to use the privileges of this light infantry…
    Random situation number two : you are a very skillful sniper in other games, but do not get access to the archer class or throwable weapons…You can’t play the way you prefer, and can’t value your skills in some areas of gameplay.
    Random situation number three : the entire enemy team is composed of knights, and you want to play vanguard, but you don’t have access to the armor piercing two-handed sword (let’s say it is balanced aka: less damage or speed, but go through armor)… You are at a disadvantage compared to what players with more choices could get.
    Random situation number four : you have no shield available, and the ennemy has plain lines of sight to poke you with bolts…yet again, the shield is a valuable tool, but is not in any way unbalanced…
    Random situation number five : …
    I could continue all day long, but I hope you see my point here.

    Having more choice is being able to adapt to more situations, is being able to show your skill in a wider spectrum of gameplay aspects, is being able to counter those who only have few choices to make without them being able to do so, except if they have quite more skill than you.
    Having more choices than one is having an advantage over them, which is basically unfair.

    I used the “Overpowered” term in order to try to show this unfairness.
    I have to disagree with you : more options is more power, no doubt on that, but maybe you did not see what kind of power I meant, that is not being flatly upgraded with little to no downsides, but being indeed more powerful in the ability to adapt to the situations and the skills of the player.



  • I understand where your coming from, If I may refer back to Rune ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grX82TmIZvg never mind the guy talking) here everyone is perfectly balanced to start even if every one looks different. Every one has access to the same weapons and armor and yet it never gets boring because of the level of skill required to play the game. Also if I may refer to 7:51 in the video you will see both fighters have the same shield and the same swords but it probably still would have been a shut out had player one not tossed his sword at the other guy. so even if both teams are perfectly matched in any game that requires skill, there will always be a small feeling of imbalance just due to some more experienced players.

    Also on TF2, yes some players will have weapons other only dream about, but that gives them something to strive for. I am not saying that’s how Chivalry should be done, I want to see this as balanced as possible, I am just saying that unlocks are not always bad in MP… just look at all that hats!



  • @Jihell:

    I know what those words means.

    if you do, you’re not using them properly.

    @Jihell:

    For instance, you only get 1 class at the beginning of the game…

    no one said this

    @Jihell:

    This class is not weak, but a new player CANNOT adapt to the situation his team is facing as well as another that has all of those classes to chose from.

    new players wouldn’t be able to adapt to every single situation anyway

    @Jihell:

    random situations

    you start with all of the base classes, just like any other game.

    @Jihell:

    Having more choice is being able to adapt to more situations

    someone adapts to a situation based on their knowledge of the situation, not the tools they are given

    @Jihell:

    Having more choices than one is having an advantage over them, which is basically unfair.

    the only way to gain an advantage over another player is being better than them, not having more tools

    @Jihell:

    I used the “Overpowered” term in order to try to show this unfairness.

    you’re using the word wrongly



  • :shock: Remind me not to get into any arguments with you, Vox.
    At this point it’s probably best we leave the balance issues for the people that are actually testing the game rather than theoretically saying what’s best based on our own knowledge.



  • All i want to unlock by achievements (not by time played or xp gained) are some cosmetic additions to arms and shields and new armor modes\textures
    What refers to unlockable weapons: as that game is skill based and all weapons have different characteristics you may adapt to using one as favorite (mb a few to a different situations) and when(if) you will unlock new one from the same group (lets say pole arm) you will unconsciously think that this one is better and trying to adapt to it , what will result in you failing all the time and playing with the old one (even if new one would fit you playstyle better) or trying to adapt until you unlock smth new… and cycle repeats. So i think all of the gameplay affecting pieces should be available from beginning (if its not lets say amount of arrows or axes carrying).Since devs are planning to add about 40-60 weapons it should be enough to cover variety which shooters give us with modifying guns.



  • @Vox:

    @Jihell:

    I know what those words means.

    if you do, you’re not using them properly.

    @Jihell:

    For instance, you only get 1 class at the beginning of the game…

    no one said this

    @Jihell:

    This class is not weak, but a new player CANNOT adapt to the situation his team is facing as well as another that has all of those classes to chose from.

    new players wouldn’t be able to adapt to every single situation anyway

    @Jihell:

    random situations

    you start with all of the base classes, just like any other game.

    @Jihell:

    Having more choice is being able to adapt to more situations

    someone adapts to a situation based on their knowledge of the situation, not the tools they are given

    @Jihell:

    Having more choices than one is having an advantage over them, which is basically unfair.

    the only way to gain an advantage over another player is being better than them, not having more tools

    @Jihell:

    I used the “Overpowered” term in order to try to show this unfairness.

    you’re using the word wrongly

    I took the class example to show you, with extreme measures, that more tools do provide unfair advantages (I sure know every class is to be available) and you used this to avoid every single bit of explanation I tried to give of my point of view.

    It is strange, to say the least, to think new players are going to be bad at the start of the game. I am sure ther will be people better than both of us who will join the game a year after. And even with that in mind, you consider new players lesser players, or at least it appears with this condescendent tone.

    And with your answer, you imply that, between two warriors equally skilled, the one with more weapons to chose from has equal chances to win than the other one ? It’s like saying to a bowman not to bring more different strings to his bow, because this is not going to be useful… or to a driver that different kinds of pneumatics won’t change anything in a rally…



  • Jihell, Vox, King, unicorn…i am going through this thread, discussion is sharp, i enjoy reading it, but unicorn has the point - long term unlockables should be cosmetic, there will be enough of weapons and warrior - configurations to choose from.

    And one thing came to me - what You think of temporary unlockables? If anyone played Dark Messiah MO - you know what i mean.
    Lets say u play vanguard - u kill, get points, take flags, live long, die rarely - you get temporary xp (just available for campaign) - xp which one can trade for better abilities / weapons in class. What You think?

    And Jihell is right - i will be new player for CmW, but I consider myself a veteran player (23 years played) and I WILL CHOP ALL YOUR HEADS OFF! :baxe:
    (joke ofc - no anger included :P)


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