Face hugging and feinting



  • You are about 1 and 1/2 months late.



  • @Knil:

    Straight up attacking a person after they parry your swing because you know they are going to feint is a great deterrent to feint spamming and will change the flow of combat back in your favor.

    If the enemy uses feints correctly, i.e. by not using them all the time, it literally boils down to guessing if his next attack will be a feint or not.

    It’s totally ridiculous, and amplified tenfold against fast one hand weapons which already deal almost as much damage as two handed weapons but are significantly harder to parry.



  • Thank you Radiant



  • Dealing with feint heavy people can be a pain, but there are things you can do to help. If someone is face hugging you, try kicking him away. I also try to stay on the offensive with them as much as possible. Some people feint too much and they’ll sometimes fail to parry/block you if you just go all out on them.



  • Straight up attacking a person after they parry your swing because you know they are going to feint is a great deterrent to feint spamming and will change the flow of combat back in your favor.

    Oh so THAT’S what I’ve been doing wrong! All I needed to do was to know when my enemy was going to feint! Thank you! Thank you so much!!

    Feinting never, ever works like you think it does.

    Anyway, there is another thread running on feinting.



  • Some of the frustration certainly comes from performance problems and wonky animations, but beyond those technical details I see nothing wrong with face hugging.

    If an aggressive/fast player gets inside the guard of a defensive/slow player, than by all rights the aggressor should be able to dish out some damage. Historically, the way to kill knights was to get in his face and jab pointy things through his eye slits, and I see face hugging as the game’s representation of that. It does nothing to diminish skill vs. skill.



  • I cant understand to get to sides or back, but facehugging just seems weird. Maybe there should be a minimum distance for weapons to get effective?



  • @AeRoTR:

    I cant understand to get to sides or back, but facehugging just seems weird. Maybe there should be a minimum distance for weapons to get effective?

    You can always kick your opponent to create some space between you and him. Well… you can always kick as long as you’ve got enough stamina.



  • @FrostFire626:

    Some of the frustration certainly comes from performance problems and wonky animations, but beyond those technical details I see nothing wrong with face hugging.

    If an aggressive/fast player gets inside the guard of a defensive/slow player, than by all rights the aggressor should be able to dish out some damage. Historically, the way to kill knights was to get in his face and jab pointy things through his eye slits, and I see face hugging as the game’s representation of that. It does nothing to diminish skill vs. skill.

    Wrong totally. Clearly this is your prowess and you are defending it.

    Historically, that’s not how knights were killed. Nice story making though. Maces and chain maces, long axes and arrows are what killed Knights or other Knights killed Knights. Don’t know where you got your history education but basing it off other games is not historical.

    The problem with face hugging is you eliminate that persons ability to use their main weapon as it just simply passes through the person. As A knight you have limited ability to get away because you are slow moving. AND YOU KNOW THAT AND HOPEFULLY THE DEVS DO TOO. The class that does this the most is the archer. They do it and use the dagger that moves at the speed of light and seems to have no effect on stamina.



  • I guess this debate is revolving around a duel setting.

    First the historical part. All that is said is true. Countering increasingly advanced armor (especially on top of large angry horses) have pressed the evolution of infantry weapons. Pulling a knight to the ground and attacking weak spots of his defense was effective, as was certain types of arrows and of course a number of melee weapons designed to deform or pierce armor.

    I will as usual speak the case of vanguards, by many deemed as the weakest class- competent players assumed. In a duel setting, i tend to agree.

    So, to face hugging and feinting In high level dueling, sword wielding vanguards have a hard time (even the glitchy halberd can barley save them). This is mainly due to face hugging and feinting. While being a viable and aggressive tactic, it is a hard counter versus Vanguards. Knights with Messer can take one hit from the claymore in exchange for closing the distance. After that, due to hugging feinting, they have a good chance to land a hit on the Van.
    Status is now: The Van can not take one more from the Messer, the knight can take one more hit from the Claymore.

    Feinting can be very elegant in a Van vs Van swordfight where both apply skilled distance management and lateral movement. It is a dance to the death. Beautiful.

    If a Van face a aggressive Messer Knight of equal skill, he will often be trampled / (not native Engl. user, dont know if that is the correct word.) run over by a rhino. He may land one two hits on the knight, but it feels futile. Even roflstomped as some kids would put it.



  • My tactic for facehuggers is a swift kick in the abdomen followed by a swift spear to their gullet. Works every time.



  • Yes, “trampled” is the correct word. :^)



  • @Petroklos:

    It’s not an issue, more like a tactic, which works as well as a Spear on Max Range.

    Sadly, spear weapon feint spam at hugging range is incredibly powerful. If you are playing in first person, even at 120 FOV it’s difficult to even see the windup animation of spear weapons’ heavy attack at hugging range. Not to mention that those animations are pretty “static” in the first place, and you’d have to count the windup time in fractions of a second.



  • Feinting is just a move that punishes playing too defensively. If you’re having people facehug and feinting you, it means you’re too timid of a player.

    Get aggressive. When people get in your face, open fire. Attack them, and they’ll learn not to feint so heavily.



  • @Rampage:

    Feinting is just a move that punishes playing too defensively. If you’re having people facehug and feinting you, it means you’re too timid of a player.

    Get aggressive. When people get in your face, open fire. Attack them, and they’ll learn not to feint so heavily.

    If I get into facehugging range with you and you attack me, I will parry it. Then it’s my turn. Nothing you can do.

    I am a defensive player by nature. Not aggressive.



  • @UnknownXV:

    @Rampage:

    Feinting is just a move that punishes playing too defensively. If you’re having people facehug and feinting you, it means you’re too timid of a player.

    Get aggressive. When people get in your face, open fire. Attack them, and they’ll learn not to feint so heavily.

    If I get into facehugging range with you and you attack me, I will parry it. Then it’s my turn. Nothing you can do.

    I am a defensive player by nature. Not aggressive.

    What do you mean, nothing I can do? If you parry my attack, I have time to follow up your parry with one of my own when you attack, even if you feint. Especially if you feint.

    If you parry someone, their reaction should be to backpedal from you at a perpendicular angle to the direction your weapon is coming from. That way, you have to sprint forward while attacking in order to keep ‘facehugging’, and if you try to feint while doing so, it’s going to be easy to see.

    Also, “defensive player by nature” is only a good thing to a certain extent. Smart aggression is what separates good players from great players. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve clotheslined a Man-At-Arm’s head off because he thought I would be timid and defensive, and how many times I’ve taken a stab from a spearman I expected to turtle up or parry and I tried to feint.



  • @Toans:

    @AeRoTR:

    I cant understand to get to sides or back, but facehugging just seems weird. Maybe there should be a minimum distance for weapons to get effective?

    You can always kick your opponent to create some space between you and him. Well… you can always kick as long as you’ve got enough stamina.

    Kick takes up a ton of stamina which just begs your enemy to keep attacking you since you’ll be low on stamina.



  • @Rampage:

    @UnknownXV:

    @Rampage:

    Feinting is just a move that punishes playing too defensively. If you’re having people facehug and feinting you, it means you’re too timid of a player.

    Get aggressive. When people get in your face, open fire. Attack them, and they’ll learn not to feint so heavily.

    If I get into facehugging range with you and you attack me, I will parry it. Then it’s my turn. Nothing you can do.

    I am a defensive player by nature. Not aggressive.

    What do you mean, nothing I can do? If you parry my attack, I have time to follow up your parry with one of my own when you attack, even if you feint. Especially if you feint.

    If you parry someone, their reaction should be to backpedal from you at a perpendicular angle to the direction your weapon is coming from. That way, you have to sprint forward while attacking in order to keep ‘facehugging’, and if you try to feint while doing so, it’s going to be easy to see.

    Also, “defensive player by nature” is only a good thing to a certain extent. Smart aggression is what separates good players from great players. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve clotheslined a Man-At-Arm’s head off because he thought I would be timid and defensive, and how many times I’ve taken a stab from a spearman I expected to turtle up or parry and I tried to feint.

    I don’t understand how so many people fail to realize how easy it is to face hug. Sprinting into enemies isn’t just smart and effective, it’s incredibly useful for making your attacks harder to block since you can get around your enemy’s sides easier. There is nothing you can do to stop an enemy from sprinting into you after blocking your swing. You can kick them but that will waste your stamina incredibly fast. Duel Radiant or I anytime and we’ll get in face hugging range with no problem.



  • That’s…kind of my point.

    If someone gets into face-hugging range, then you should be getting aggressive. If you’re trying to read feints or play super-defensively, you’re gonna get nailed. If someone’s in your business like that, you need to be overhead-chopping and circling with them to force them to have to turn with you.

    I’ve seen Radiant post before about how he’s a “reactive” player and how the game should cater to that, and I disagree. If a game caters to defensive playstyles, it winds up punishing aggression. It’s just not feasible to have them ‘equally viable’ because there’s no such thing; if defense is equal to aggression, then no one will aggress since defending is -safer-. Aggression is higher risk, and by necessity needs to be higher reward.

    If feinting really bothers you that much, grab a shield. They’re immune to it. Someone takes a swing, you lift your shield and don’t drop it until you hear that thunk, turning it to make sure it’s facing their weapon tip the whole time.

    If you’re a man at arms and someone feints you, you shouldn’t parry; you should dodge-step back.

    If you’re a vanguard or a knight not using a shield, then you need to get better about not letting people facehug you in the first place, no matter how “easy” it is. If you can’t prevent that, then maybe the class isn’t for you.

    There’s plenty you can do to stop an enemy from sprinting into you after blocking your swing. Being facehugged is not a death sentence, it’s just a different metagame, and a manageable one at that.



  • @Rampage:

    That’s…kind of my point.

    If someone gets into face-hugging range, then you should be getting aggressive. If you’re trying to read feints or play super-defensively, you’re gonna get nailed. If someone’s in your business like that, you need to be overhead-chopping and circling with them to force them to have to turn with you.

    What you describe would not be based on skill, but luck of the draw. That’s not fun, and certainly doesn’t belong in this game.

    I’ve seen Radiant post before about how he’s a “reactive” player and how the game should cater to that, and I disagree. If a game caters to defensive playstyles, it winds up punishing aggression. It’s just not feasible to have them ‘equally viable’ because there’s no such thing; if defense is equal to aggression, then no one will aggress since defending is -safer-. Aggression is higher risk, and by necessity needs to be higher reward.

    It’s not about catering to a defensive style, it’s about making both aggressive and defensive styles require skill to execute. When you introduce an aggressive mechanic that has no defensive counter regardless of the person’s defensive skill level… you mess up the game.

    If feinting really bothers you that much, grab a shield. They’re immune to it. Someone takes a swing, you lift your shield and don’t drop it until you hear that thunk, turning it to make sure it’s facing their weapon tip the whole time.

    As I said I am mostly reactive. With a shield, I can still be faked easily especially with fast one handed attacks that can change directional swings from a feint in the blink of an eye to bypass the shield. This will be even more powerful when the next patch comes out with alternative swing directions. That will also make feinting even more deadly.

    If you’re a man at arms and someone feints you, you shouldn’t parry; you should dodge-step back.

    Man at arms players are in a unique position where they do have a mechanic that can be used defensively to counter feints. It’s not perfect as it is stamina dependent and somewhat buggy, but an maa is by far the best class in a duel. This is no surprise.

    If you’re a vanguard or a knight not using a shield, then you need to get better about not letting people facehug you in the first place, no matter how “easy” it is. If you can’t prevent that, then maybe the class isn’t for you.

    You keep saying that, but as Nick and I point out, there is no way to reliably prevent someone from getting into facehugging range.

    Using a shield, even if it was defensively superior (which it isn’t necessarily unless you play in third person) also reduces my offensive power. as I am reactive, most of my power comes in waiting for players to make a mistake, but also my bread and butter are parry counter attacks. You can’t execute them with a shield. So the only way to “somewhat” defend against a feint, dramatically reduces my already modest offense. That’s not balanced.

    There’s plenty you can do to stop an enemy from sprinting into you after blocking your swing. Being facehugged is not a death sentence, it’s just a different metagame, and a manageable one at that.

    Sorry but I am just laughing a bit. Please fight me and I’ll show you how wrong you are about this. I will get into facehugging range repeatedly without trouble. Unless you’re an maa of course. ;)