[SUMMARIZED-WIP] PLEASE fix weapon blocking abilities!



  • End the over-powered blocking abilities of the Archer class!

    Why can archers (and MAA), block vanguard charges or full overhead swings with a tiny, toothpick, dagger? This is horribly unrealistic and needs to be fixed. Archers already have the huge advantage or being able to attack from a distance. If a melee only class wants to attack an archer, the archer can almost 1-2 hit kill them before you even get to reach them. This, coupled with the fact that the archer’s melee weapons can get almost two hits for your one, they are way overpowered.

    Realistically, blocking the attack of a war hammer, two-handed sword, a charge swing (two-handed sword), or other very heavy weapon - with a dagger, is ineffective at best. Trying to block such an attack would most likely result in a shattered wrist or a broken arm. While realism can’t always be assured due to game balance, in this case, game balance CAN be restored by using realism.

    Suggestions made so far to fix this issue:

    • A much more impacting knock-bock effect on the archer takes place

    • Much more stamina is taken in the blocking of such an attack

    • Health (though not the full, normal amount) is taken even with a block

    • The dagger or other small weapons takes damage (so it is less effective until they die)

    • Daggers and other small weapons cannot block such an attack at all



  • It’s neither imbalanced nor unrealistic. Daggers are already worse weapons than shortswords, and suffer a heavy stamina penalty for parrying heavy weapons.

    Also, please notice that in Chivalry when you aren’t using a shield, you can only “block” for .5 seconds. That’s because you don’t actually “block” with a weapon, just like in real combat (alright, you might block with something like a polearm or spear, since you can’t really parry with them) - you deflect the attack. Trying to stop the momentum of a heavy sword being swung by a burly warrior is just going to make you break your wrist. It doesn’t matter if you’re using a dagger or a longsword, that’s going to transfer the full force of his blow into your wrist and break it.

    Daggers have long been used as defensive weapons in the off hand while wielding a short sword, because they’re quick and easy to wield, so they’re perfect for parrying enemy attacks while making an attack of your own without throwing yourself off balance as much as a shield or second sword would. They also have the advantage over small shields of being able to be used on the offensive when you spot an opening, because your opponent will be more focused on your main weapon.



  • @KingArthur:

    Why can archers (and MAA), block vanguard charges or full overhead swings with a tiny, toothpick, dagger?

    That made me laugh. Still its bloody hard to hit anything with a bow cause everyone keeps moving around.



  • There aren’t many good archers in melee. Two hit kill most of the time as well.

    Though I had one hilarious time on a LTS game. I killed the last 4 guys as an archer in melee. All four came at me to of them got tked I stabbed a vanguard with my short sword and win a fist fight with a knight.

    Never again will that happen to me. I was so lucky to come up against 4 LMB fools.



  • @SlyGoat:

    It’s neither imbalanced nor unrealistic. Daggers are already worse weapons than shortswords, and suffer a heavy stamina penalty for parrying heavy weapons.

    Of course it is, the game strives in no way shape or form to be realistic, you have a fully plated knight being killed by a shortsword, or a small flat hammer, or any of the other myriad of weapons that can’t penetrate plates of steel. No one in general should be saying anything about realism, honestly, let’s all not bring it up again. Daggers are the fastest weapon, so it doesn’t matter if they have worse damage and reach, an enemy cannot attack you if you’re close to them, and honestly the stamina penalty doesn’t matter with a light quick class.

    @SlyGoat:

    Also, please notice that in Chivalry when you aren’t using a shield, you can only “block” for .5 seconds. That’s because you don’t actually “block” with a weapon, just like in real combat (alright, you might block with something like a polearm or spear, since you can’t really parry with them) - you deflect the attack. Trying to stop the momentum of a heavy sword being swung by a burly warrior is just going to make you break your wrist. It doesn’t matter if you’re using a dagger or a longsword, that’s going to transfer the full force of his blow into your wrist and break it.

    People do that all the time in tourneys, no shattered arms which is ridiculous, what would happen is not shattering of your wrist but bending of the weapon as few weapons could take repeated blows without wearing in some way, hence why they do it at their own risk with cheap weapons(usually iron and wood) and not their prized arms.

    @SlyGoat:

    Daggers have long been used as defensive weapons in the off hand while wielding a short sword, because they’re quick and easy to wield, so they’re perfect for parrying enemy attacks while making an attack of your own without throwing yourself off balance as much as a shield or second sword would. They also have the advantage over small shields of being able to be used on the offensive when you spot an opening, because your opponent will be more focused on your main weapon.

    You cannot parry a huge weapon with a dagger, at all, it’s simply not possible, you can certainly dodge effectively with a small weapon and then strike after they do, but you aren’t physically parrying a poleaxe with a dagger, or parrying a zweihander or anything of that nature.

    OP is quite right, archers are seriously out of balance, they have no real downsides aside from low health but then the health is surprisingly relative in this game, a knight isn’t much more survivable to play as compared to a vanguard which struck me as quite odd, but balance and all that. All you have to do in melee is hug the person and spam dagger, and at range you get free kills with no counter, the real concern the developers should have is that everyone will ban archers from their servers in the update if they don’t address the balance issue.

    Honestly I don’t even see why the class is in here, nothing particularly chivalrous about archers.



  • There’s nothing particularly chivalrous about the game <_<…you don’t spare an opponents life after a good battle. You kill villagers, poison water supplies, burn houses, etc…



  • @Fragbert:

    There’s nothing particularly chivalrous about the game <_<…you don’t spare an opponents life after a good battle. You kill villagers, poison water supplies, burn houses, etc…

    …protect said villagers, protect a King, try to stop them poisoning the water, protecting the royal family etc…

    It depends on what side you are.

    Agatha = The (kinda) good Knights
    Mason = Racist and genocidist Assholes

    There is chivalry in Chivalry ;)



  • Good archers can completely wreck games though. Think of them as a counter to good melee players, at least you have something which can bring them down short of having to face them in melee. There is no reason to undermine their ranged abilities.

    Then again, there is no reason for a kfc knife to parry a maul without either shattering the knife or your arm. Even trying to parry a spear stab is hard unless you’ve got super-human reflexes.



  • @Wangmaster:

    Good archers can completely wreck games though. Think of them as a counter to good melee players, at least you have something which can bring them down short of having to face them in melee. There is no reason to undermine their ranged abilities.

    Then again, there is no reason for a kfc knife to parry a maul without either shattering the knife or your arm. Even trying to parry a spear stab is hard unless you’ve got super-human reflexes.

    +1

    But no one will ever change that… :|



  • Daggers have long been used as defensive weapons in the off hand while wielding a short sword, because they’re quick and easy to wield, so they’re perfect for parrying enemy attacks while making an attack of your own without throwing yourself off balance as much as a shield or second sword would. They also have the advantage over small shields of being able to be used on the offensive when you spot an opening, because your opponent will be more focused on your main weapon.

    So, what you’re saying, correct me if I’m off the mark here, is that archers and MAA should have the option of fighting with a dagger in their off-hand? I agree completely!



  • @Wobbler:

    Daggers have long been used as defensive weapons in the off hand while wielding a short sword, because they’re quick and easy to wield, so they’re perfect for parrying enemy attacks while making an attack of your own without throwing yourself off balance as much as a shield or second sword would. They also have the advantage over small shields of being able to be used on the offensive when you spot an opening, because your opponent will be more focused on your main weapon.

    So, what you’re saying, correct me if I’m off the mark here, is that archers and MAA should have the option of fighting with a dagger in their off-hand? I agree completely!

    If it replaces a tertiary weapon option (no shield, no special arrows or throwables, etc.) then yes, that would be pretty cool.



  • I don’t think archers are particularly OP. They have their counters: shields (and specifically) MAA class. They will only do serious damage to a team when in large numbers and if they are all good players to boot, otherwise they are annoying at best. Roll with a shield or go MAA and go archer hunting. Archers are easy prey to someone that can sneak attack their flanks.

    As far as daggers parrying all of the weapons I agree that there need to be some exceptions, namely the sledgehammer and grand mace. If the daggers couldn’t parry anything then no one would use them, but watching a dagger parry a sledgehammer is absurd.



  • @Wangmaster:

    Good archers can completely wreck games though. Think of them as a counter to good melee players, at least you have something which can bring them down short of having to face them in melee. There is no reason to undermine their ranged abilities.

    Then again, there is no reason for a kfc knife to parry a maul without either shattering the knife or your arm. Even trying to parry a spear stab is hard unless you’ve got super-human reflexes.

    No, there isn’t any reason to undermine their ranged ability, that’s fair enough. The problem I have with it, is that IF I manage to dodge their arrows/they miss/sneak up to them - then they become over powered as even if I charge, my attacks can simply be blocked with a little dagger. I think even a huge two-handed sword couldn’t be blocked by a dagger, especially if the person using it was a knight or something.
    –------

    I will summarize my thoughts here:

    Archers can shoot me from afar while I’m running at them - fair enough - that’s their advantage for having low health.
    If I manage to get up close to them and all they have is a dagger/really short sword/ I should be able to either throw them majorly off balance allowing me to get in another attack, or damage their weapon to the degree that they cannot block a second attack. Perhaps even not be be able to block in the first place, but I think at least give them a small chance. One block that mitigates a LITTLE bit of the damage, but that also knocks them off balance.

    This way, we both have 1 advantage, and 1 disadvantage, making game-play MUCH more balanced.



  • I don’t exactly know how stamina/blocking works, but a way to balance it imo would be to drain proportional stamina depending on weapon damage. So you drain a little bit stamina for blocking from a dagger, but a lot from a warhammer. Vanguard charge should be very hard to block, unblockable (shield only), or drain all stamina. Just my opinion



  • @OmmNomNom:

    I don’t exactly know how stamina/blocking works, but a way to balance it imo would be to drain proportional stamina depending on weapon damage. So you drain a little bit stamina for blocking from a dagger, but a lot from a warhammer. Vanguard charge should be very hard to block, unblockable (shield only), or drain all stamina. Just my opinion

    Yes, that’s one option. I think both a stamina drain AND a health drop would be needed. I mean, blocking a warhammer with a dagger would break your arm. Now if that doesn’t drop your health I don’t know what will.



  • Kick when they block. Stunned. Time your attack to hit them while they are still winding up theirs. Stunned. Intentionally miss an attack while queuing up a combo, strike while their guard is down.

    A nervous archer playing super defensively? Fake an attack with Q, then strike.

    Please don’t question realism with this game, because there are just as many unrealistic things that vanguards and knights do as well that can be even more BS than a MAA or archer blocking with a knife.

    A lot of fixes and suggestions that I’m seeing here would just make the weapon or class useless. If you’re a vanguard or a knight, you already have a health advantage, damage advantage, reach advantage, and defensive advantage if you’re a knight with a shield. The question is not whether the weapons needing fixing, but your playstyle.

    If you’re having issues killing an opponent who has a quicker weapon, keep in mind you do have secondary weapons. Vanguards will be trading range and damage for speed. Knights will be trading range and damage for speed and defense if they have a shield.



  • @snowfox86:

    A lot of fixes and suggestions that I’m seeing here would just make the weapon or class useless. If you’re a vanguard or a knight, you already have a health advantage, damage advantage, reach advantage, and defensive advantage if you’re a knight with a shield. The question is not whether the weapons needing fixing, but your playstyle.

    If you’re having issues killing an opponent who has a quicker weapon, keep in mind you do have secondary weapons. Vanguards will be trading range and damage for speed. Knights will be trading range and damage for speed and defense if they have a shield.

    The problem lies in the fact that archers can get all classes down to almost no health AND 90% of the time, block most attacks made against them with a little dagger.

    I’m not talking about realism (though this IS horribly unrealistic), I’m talking about game balance. Sure, knight’s can do some unrealistic things, but I wouldn’t call them overpowered. Vanguards can use their long reach to counter the knight’s heavy armour. MAA can use their shields to their advantage, but have lower health and are defenceless from behind.

    Archers though, have two advantages over every other class. Long distance damage, (much more accurate than throwing axes), and blocking even the heaviest of attacks. I think this needs to be changed, ESPECIALLY before all the aim-bots start coming out.



  • Someone complaining about archers being OP in melee?

    Now I’ve seen everything.



  • @lemonater47:

    Someone complaining about archers being OP in melee?

    Now I’ve seen everything.

    What kind of response is that? I’m only stating what is. Archers SHOULD NOT be OP in melee, but the fact is - they are. If the developers had made sure that such a ridiculous thing didn’t enter the game - we wouldn’t have this problem.

    By the way - the “now I’ve seen everything” replies are getting old, are pretty lame, and don’t contribute anything helpful or even meaningful, to the discussion.



  • @KingArthur:

    What kind of response is that? I’m only stating what is. Archers SHOULD NOT be OP in melee, but the fact is - they are. If the developers had made sure that such a ridiculous thing didn’t enter the game - we wouldn’t have this problem.

    By the way - the “now I’ve seen everything” replies are getting old, are pretty lame, and don’t contribute anything helpful or even meaningful, to the discussion.

    M8… i do admit… a good archer… can rule the whole game… But you need to be very skilled.
    And i mean, very skilled!
    Maybe you have an other oppinion about that, but im a rank 32 archer… mainly arching, because the satisfaction of a kill with a bow is much higher than a melee kill. Because you dont lmb spam or just backstabbing people… you really need to focus and foresight the movement of your opponent.

    BUT, i hope you do realize that archers are the HARD counter for Vanguards… i mean, i can own a whole army of vanguards… Easy targets, less health than a knight, no shield…
    Besides that, you do know that the next patch will give servers the possibility to have a limited amount of any class?!?
    So the problem with too many archers on the attacking team will be finally over.
    That’s in my opinion the most annoying part of archers… The attacking team seems to take too many archers, instead of the defending team…

    -Mr. Sharpshooter-


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