The almighty Q



  • To start I want to point out that I have been playing and enjoying the game since the release. I was not in the beta, but I have tallied up 300 hours of play so far. It’s amazing, addicting. The foundation and core work so well; I truly love it.

    Now with that said, let me address feinting.

    Feinting, or more appropriately the meta derived from the mechanic’s primary function of simply cancelling an attack in progress by pressing one button before the end of the windup, is broken. The main use of this mechanic is fine, to cancel an attack you don’t want to complete. However, in practice the mechanic transcends this by orders of magnitude.

    These are the issues I have noticed:

    1 - In application with fast weapons, it becomes virtually impossible to react to. In an otherwise skill-based game that tests evenly offensive and defensive skills fairly consistently in reflexes, footwork, spatial awareness, timings, you name it… this feinting meta comes in to disrupt it with dice rolling. With fast weapons, it turns the fight into a guessing game.

    I am left to wonder when fighting players who use this strategy if they will use a feint next, or if it will be a normal attack. If I guess that it will be a feint and attack, at best we will hit trade. If I guess incorrectly on a defensive stance, there’s no options for me besides a last ditch attempt to crouch out of the way; but that is finicky. Yes I can also kick, but that is situational and the range is quite short. Not an option against a good man at arms player or another class that uses sprint well to close ground hastily.

    Feinting is an issue on its own but is magnified and boosted tenfold in strength when coupled with a fast weapon.

    2 - To expand on the previous point, there’s another strategy that boils down to luck. That is when coupled with any weapon being used with the swing/overhead acceleration tactic. On its own I rarely have an issue defending against people who accelerate their attacks in such a form, but combined with feinting it makes it inconceivable to defend against. Notice a trend here? Defence takes a back seat, regardless of skill level. That’s the problem.

    Tied to this is combo feinting. Simple enough, after landing one successful hit on an enemy, you proceed to initiate a combo and then cancel out of it and initiate a new attack immediately after. The effect this has on a lot of weapons, due to the nature of the animations, is a swing starting at one side that magically zips to the other in a blink of an eye.

    Let’s roll those dice… hmm, two 6’s, not bad. Hope I get that lucky next round.

    3 - When you initiate an attack, you can cancel it at any point during the weapon’s windup. It’s not hard to master this technique after playing for a while, a certain memory of weapon timings becomes innate. If you get near someone, hold the feint and you get a free hit. I’ve yet to see anyone who can consistently react to it.

    4 - The last issue with feinting is the minimal to near-zero penalty for using it, and even spamming it. One can cancel an attack 6 times in a row before running out of stamina. In battle, provided you aren’t sprinting continuously, it will regenerate quite fast. Thus, a decent player who randomizes his attack pattern will almost never run out of stamina using feints.

    There is no genuine penalty or cost for using it, making it a primary ability instead of situational as I have a feeling it was intended to be.

    I’ll finish by stating that on a subjective level, I simply find fights without feinting far more intense, fast-paced and above all else; more fun.



  • What if you have your feint bound to some other key than Q?



  • “The almighty whatever keybind you have assigned to cancel an attack” just didn’t have the same ring to it. ;)



  • The amount of time you are given is definitely possible to react to, but it is so difficult to react to that is is rather absurd. the amount of muscle memory and training required is literally at least ten times higher than all of the other game mechanics in Chivalry combined.

    Feinting is necessary, however, in that is quickens the pace of fights (assuming faster pace = better). It adds depth to spacing and makes the game generally more aggressive. It also adds a ton of risk-reward tension and depth to what would otherwise be a somewhat flat combat system.

    As for your main complaint: the “dice-roll”, it can never and most likely will never be changed. Now, feinting isn’t quite as much of a die-roll as you think it is but I agree it definitely has a certain luck element to it. It’s just a fundamental nature of the mechanic. It can never be any other way without a complete overhaul (which won’t happen).

    Is feinting too predominant and spammable? I’d say probably yes. This can be tweaked by raising the stamina cost required to feint. I’d say a small increase in stamina cost would not be without warrant. In the end, however, it is a high-level mechanic that the game will always revolve around (short of a total remake).

    Oh, and one final note, a lot of animations in this game are way way too difficult to see. casually raising your halberd up a couple millimeters is just not an acceptable wind-up animation for a game that literally revolves 100% around animation/frame timings. This is a big problem that feinting has right now and could be fixed with better/more prominant/more embellished animations.



  • I need to make a video showcasing high-level dueling without feinting, because the absolute last thing it is, is slow paced. I don’t feel feinting is necessary at all.



  • OP has a point.



  • Just want to point out that since the brief recovery was added to feint, no weapon attacks faster by feinting a combo than by continuing the combo. Its primary use is to parry attempted hit-trades, since you can parry during a feint recovery.



  • @demonwing:

    As for your main complaint: the “dice-roll”, it can never and most likely will never be changed. Now, feinting isn’t quite as much of a die-roll as you think it is but I agree it definitely has a certain luck element to it. It’s just a fundamental nature of the mechanic. It can never be any other way without a complete overhaul (which won’t happen).

    You can’t just make a statement like ‘it isn’t as much of a die-roll as you think’ without backing it up with ANY explanation whatsoever. Everything the OP said was correct. Feinting with either a 1-hander or a 2-handed lookdown overhead attack IS pure guesswork.

    OP, great post. You nail every single thing wrong with feint. What is your view on thrust feints (particularly with the halberd)? I find them very, very hard to read.



  • That is a really timely post, if your statements are accurate then there is certainly a basis for necessary change. Whilst I do use feinting every so often I also have a dim view of its use and effects on the playing experience in Chivalry.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Just want to point out that since the brief recovery was added to feint, no weapon attacks faster by feinting a combo than by continuing the combo. Its primary use is to parry attempted hit-trades, since you can parry during a feint recovery.

    Is that right? It still feels like feinting on a combo lets the next swing be faster, but maybe it’s just in my head.



  • I find I primarily use feint a lot just to cancel an attack that might hit team mates or just to stop myself making unnecessary extra swings. Say like a team mate runs in and kills the guy I’m just about to attack- I cancel my attack so he doesn’t get hit by my swing.

    I wish people would do that more instead of continuing their 360º LMB swing combo frenzy another 50 times over the dead body. He’s dead, you don’t need to keep attacking.



  • @UnknownXV:

    @SlyGoat:

    Just want to point out that since the brief recovery was added to feint, no weapon attacks faster by feinting a combo than by continuing the combo. Its primary use is to parry attempted hit-trades, since you can parry during a feint recovery.

    Is that right? It still feels like feinting on a combo lets the next swing be faster, but maybe it’s just in my head.

    There is still the glitch where other animations overwirte the windup animation e.g. unblock shield or feint combo



  • Can’t say that feinting bothers me one way or another. I’ve only been playing for about two weeks now with close to 30 hours in and I hardly use it to be honest. I just don’t think of using it often and when I do, sure the enemy will react with a block, but 9 times out of 10, they still easily block my next swing, so why bother?

    When a guy comes at me with a feint, I’m usually already coming at him with an attack, thus, he’s at the disadvantage and gets clubbed. I’m more offense than defense and my tactics revolve around focusing on open spots and timing with one-hit attacks or combo head swings when surrounded/out numbered.

    then again, I’m usually a knight and I find feinting doesn’t work so well for the slower classes, which is also why I don’t bother with it. Same with the Man at Arm’s dodge thing. I never liked double tapping keys & most times I try, I still end up getting hit, so I just go right into the thick.

    When team mates are around and I got a combo swing coming at them, I usually just aim at the ground or away from them so I miss.

    In saying all of this I don’t mind feinting being in the game or being tweaked. The more options the better. It’s like how many FPS’s have a lean function around corners. Nice feature, but I never use it…… Ever. Just makes me get killed more often than just popping out quickly or crouch walking around the corner. If people want to use it, all the power to them, but I use it to my advantage, much like the players who use feinting. Nice fake out… But I’m still coming to get ya with a mace to tha face ;)



  • When a guy comes at me with a feint, I’m usually already coming at him with an attack

    This is impossible after you’ve been parried. The game was designed so that if you’ve been parried, you can never attack faster than the guy who parried you. Meaning, if you even as so much get a single attack blocked by someone else, it’s becomes a chance as to whether your opponent will then feint or not on his retaliatory attack (doesn’t happen often in public play, but in higher level play, it’s a hell of a lot more likely), and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it except guess whether to parry or not. Guessed correctly? Phew, you blocked it. Guessed wrong? You just took damage.

    The only time a feint can be considered ‘counterable’ right now, is if its done from idle, in which you rightly pointed out, you can attack first (although strictly speaking, you’re not countering it, you’re anticipating it and beating him to the damage dealing, if you attack but the player actually isn’t going to feint, he will hit you first if he has a fairly fast weapon), or use footwork to just get out of range.

    As for ‘fixing’ feint, we’ll just have to see what the future holds.



  • @Martin:

    When a guy comes at me with a feint, I’m usually already coming at him with an attack

    This is impossible after you’ve been parried. The game was designed so that if you’ve been parried, you can never attack faster than the guy who parried you. Meaning, if you even as so much get a single attack blocked by someone else, it’s becomes a chance as to whether your opponent will then feint or not on his retaliatory attack (doesn’t happen often in public play, but in higher level play, it’s a hell of a lot more likely), and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it except guess whether to parry or not. Guessed correctly? Phew, you blocked it. Guessed wrong? You just took damage.

    The only time a feint can be considered ‘counterable’ right now, is if its done from idle, in which you rightly pointed out, you can attack first (although strictly speaking, you’re not countering it, you’re anticipating it and beating him to the damage dealing, if you attack but the player actually isn’t going to feint, he will hit you first if he has a fairly fast weapon), or use footwork to just get out of range.

    As for ‘fixing’ feint, we’ll just have to see what the future holds.

    Sorry I wasn’t mentionng anything about being parried…. Just when we both approach one another for the first time. Usually I can come in swinging but strafing as well to miss their hit while landing my own… I didn’t see anything in the op mentioning parrying with feinting following the parry.

    In situations where I was parried and the guy feints and then swings, well I haven’t come across that often enough to comment on what occurs, but most times I am already back tracking away to setup my next tactic, and they usually miss as I also try to parry (just in case they aren’t feinting)

    But I am still new to the game, and still trying to figure out what most people are talking about in regards to mechanics and the coded details of combat. I don’t typically get into the milisecond stuff… I just see how people play and how people react in the game and respond in kind… Focusing on the technical stuff too much can ruin the fun. Though if something is really unbalanced or wrong, then it needs to be addressed. For me thus far, I don’t see anything too out of the ordinary.



  • At the beginning I didn’t like feint either. But this has changed, after thinking about the alternatives. I like the length of each fight, it just feels right. Fights with weaker opponents take only a few seconds and fights with skilled opponents almost never take longer than a minute (where fights start to get tedious if they regularly last this long). Take M&B for example, pure reactionary combat. While fun at low skilllevels (enough mistakes so you get hit, and fights end quick) at high skill levels player get hit much less frequently, leading to long tedious fights. In CMW you can force mistakes easily, in M&B it is more about waiting that your opponent screws up. You just do your attacks(and feintspam) in M&B and hope they hit. In CMW you think more about your attack. Always doing feint-attack will not work, as this becomes preditable. As long as you know what your enemy is going to do, you have the upper hand. While many claim feints are “pure” guesswork, I don’t think this is true. It like to draw a comparison to poker here, which is also about luck, but not exclusively. There’s always a context, habits of a certain player and your experience to predict what he is going to do. So feints are guesswork, but not exclusively. Of course there’s that first attack of the enemy you have never faced before, but you always share that advantage/disadvantage ;).



  • While many claim feints are “pure” guesswork, I don’t think this is true. It like to draw a comparison to poker here, which is also about luck, but not exclusively. There’s always a context, habits of a certain player and your experience to predict what he is going to do. So feints are guesswork, but not exclusively. Of course there’s that first attack of the enemy you have never faced before, but you always share that advantage/disadvantage

    No. Your analogy to poker does not work. Poker is a long game consisting of many rounds and you have a long time to assess people’s behaviour. In Chivalry the fights only last 30-60 seconds usually, for skilled players. That is not enough time to assess their playstyle and use this information to deal with their feints. You would only be able to do this if you fought them several times - I don’t think that’s what the combat is meant to be balanced around.

    I don’t think you quite understand what the OP means when he says ‘guesswork’. When you face a 2h sword, you will have enough time to gauge whether it is a feint or not because the swing is slow (exceptions being lookdown overheads and thrusts - both of which need fixing). When facing a 1h sword, however, the swing is too fast for this and you have to ‘guess’ whether it’s a real swing or not. It isn’t actually about prediction at all.

    Can’t say that feinting bothers me one way or another. I’ve only been playing for about two weeks now with close to 30 hours in and I hardly use it to be honest. I just don’t think of using it often and when I do, sure the enemy will react with a block, but 9 times out of 10, they still easily block my next swing, so why bother?

    No offence, but you aren’t experienced enough to see these issues. The reason they’re blocking your post-feint attacks is because you’re doing it too slowly.



  • @Bloodhead:

    @Falc:

    While many claim feints are “pure” guesswork, I don’t think this is true. It like to draw a comparison to poker here, which is also about luck, but not exclusively. There’s always a context, habits of a certain player and your experience to predict what he is going to do. So feints are guesswork, but not exclusively. Of course there’s that first attack of the enemy you have never faced before, but you always share that advantage/disadvantage

    No. Your analogy to poker does not work. Poker is a long game consisting of many rounds and you have a long time to assess people’s behaviour. In Chivalry the fights only last 30-60 seconds usually, for skilled players. That is not enough time to assess their playstyle and use this information to deal with their feints. You would only be able to do this if you fought them several times - I don’t think that’s what the combat is meant to be balanced around.

    You can’t compare one fight of CMW to a complete poker game. Of course this comparison doesn’t work here because you compare different things. You have to compare a game of poker to a map of chivalry(or set of duels). And a single round of poker to one single duel, which are very much alike. You get hints, but you never know for sure.

    And if fights are purely luck then tell me why the better players win at least 80% of the time in duels? (Of course I have no proof for this, but I’m sure anyone who plays regularly on duel servers knows what I’m talking about)

    @Bloodhead:

    I don’t think you quite understand what the OP means when he says ‘guesswork’. When you face a 2h sword, you will have enough time to gauge whether it is a feint or not because the swing is slow (exceptions being lookdown overheads and thrusts - both of which need fixing). When facing a 1h sword, however, the swing is too fast for this and you have to ‘guess’ whether it’s a real swing or not. It isn’t actually about prediction at all.

    I understand what he says, but I don’t agree with him. I think feints and lookdown overheads are fine. “Fixing” overhead lookdown nerfs 2h weapons and buffs 1h weapons(since 2h weapons have higher release times). With your “fix” you could react to 2h feints but not to 1h feints, which would worsen the “problem”. Right now there are only two classes which use 1h weapons as their primary: shield knights and maa. Neither of these are even close of needing a buff, as they are the top of the food chain right now.



  • To be honest, feinting only really annoys me with smaller weapons.

    The usual greatsword vanguard isn’t going to catch you off guard with a stab into a feint overhead if you know he’s going to do it.

    However, a man at arms feinting an overhead is literally impossible to block unless the maa mistimes his attack. Taking advantage of the speed of a weapon like the hatchet, the man at arms can count on the fact that the other person must initiate their parry during the overhead’s windup. This leads to an attack that you can’t logically parry without luck. The mechanic of parrying and feinting needs some revision. The way it currently is makes weapons with the quickest release for the most amount of damage per hit the best weapons in the game, because of how feinting allows them to consistently hit without repercussion.



  • Feinting becomes fundamentally broken at close range/facehug range.

    Anyone who defends this broken mechanic is going to kill this game. Chivalry is already low skill enough as it is, keeping a luck based mechanic in the game is going to shape the meta in stupid ways.

    Keep in mind I think feinting is OK at medium range/arms length, but it just doesn’t work when both players move close to eachother. It’s a design oversight that happened when they linked feinting to the windup animation.


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