The almighty Q



  • If feints are luck, then the whole combat is luck. Feints are your main source of hits. Hits kill people. Dead people lose. Conclusion: The lucky one wins. You didn’t say it but that is the consequence.

    Yes, I am indeed saying that combat is luck if both players are using a 1h or nothing but lookdown overheads with a 2h. Those feints are unreadable. If there was a duel in which two people (both feinting) were using exclusively these attacks, the outcome would be luck. Do you disagree?

    So your point is if you are not using the blatantly overpowered shields then better players beat you? I don’t get what you want to say.

    I am only mentioning shields because they are immune to feints. So, I may be facing someone better than me, but because even the best players can’t read 1h feints I can win. It shouldn’t be doable (though, thinking about it, I don’t know why I mentioned the shield at all - I could beat him if we were both using 1 handers. It would be basically pure luck.)

    You guessed wrong I am actually playing quite much on duel servers. I don’t know where you got your conclusion from. Don’t try to discredit someone to “win” an argument, as you will only harm yourself that way.

    Actually I got this from something you said yourself, I can find it if you like. I wasn’t trying to ‘discredit’ you.

    I think using a clever feint is more fun than parry trading for a minute. Fun is very subjective.

    No-one wants feint removed (if they do, they’re an idiot). All we’re saying is that 1-hander feints (and, imo, lookdown overhead and thrust feints) need a look at. They are too fast to be blockable in the way that 2h feints are and turn the duel into guesswork.



  • @Delfagro:

    I’m not so sure that the majority of those who have played a decent amount of hours would agree that feinting needs a major overhaul.

    Disabeling feints? Well hello 5 minute duelsIn high level dueling, feinting is an important part of the meta. The poker metaphor should not be bluntly disregarded in this setting, because duel servers generally are low populated and you develop a feeling for the notable players habits and patterns. Good players do very few mistakes in their basic game, and it is often hard to land a unfeinted attack without trading.

    In public servers feinting is not that common, but even there feinting works wonders.

    While feinting is not hard to do, I observe a correlation between successful feinting and skill, as with any other aspect (distance management, footwork, timing, weapon knowledge etc) of combat.

    Frankly, I find the mechanic well implemented. Versus less experienced players its low risk high reward. Versus good players it is more a high risk high reward endeavor as they are more likely to reply with a sword of war stab. However a slight increase in stamina cost might be in order, as it feels almost free now.

    Feinting is easy relative to all the other mechanics combined. The skill level necessary to master footwork, timing, etc… without throwing in feints as well is quite a bit more than what you need if feinting is part of your style.

    But, fundamentally, the problem is that even if it took a lot of skill to master, much like archery, no matter your own defensive skill you can’t reliably defend against it. No other mechanic is so strong that you cannot react to it; and that is why it’s imbalanced.

    It’s not so terrible for players who are more aggressive, but it’s devastating for players such as myself who are more reactionary and defensive.



  • Apologies if this has been mentioned before and I missed it.

    You cannot feint a parry counter: the accelerated attack that comes after successfully parrying an enemies strike. But you can of course wait and not initiate the accelerated attack and successfully feint out of the strikes you que up after that. This is an important distinction to make, even if no one has mentioned this before.

    And if you think combo feints are powerful, where swings can move from one side to the other if you feint out of your combo, just wait until this big patch when you don’t have to be in combo to do it! You can bet I’ll be abusing this all day long because it will be near unstoppable and powerful to the point of absurdity.

    The feint mechanic is an interesting part of Chivalry. I can honestly see both sides of this argument and can agree with the poker analogy among skilled players. Skilled players will have to recognize how other skilled players are playing and be able to extrapolate their next move based on previous encounters. This is damn awesome in my opinion.

    On the other hand, the guesswork factor is always there for the initial engagement and will continue to be there, even if it’s lessened somewhat by previous experience against a particular opponent. And of course, against a lot of 1H and smaller weapons, it’s nearly impossible to recognize what’s going to be a feint and what’s going to be an actual attack.

    My simple (perhaps overly simple) solution

    The feint mechanic should have a shorter window than it currently does. Instead of being able to cancel the attack up to and including 50% of the attack, or whatever percentage it’s currently at, make it 40% and even shorter, or nonexistant, for incredibly fast weapons like daggers. This would put it where it needs to be. Against skilled players, it would become the action you use to break the rhythm between constant parry counters, allowing you to throw off the other players rhythm and get in the attack you need. It would still work as intended against lower skilled opponents because they’re often just keying off of your initial movement anyway and don’t quite know how to wait out their blocks.

    Another possible solution is to let feints completely stop the animation process for a split second, so that the weapon hangs in the air for just a fraction of a second before returning to idle.

    These are just random ideas though, and I do think the system works pretty damn well in its current form. Shields, ducks, aggressiveness and maintaining distance through footwork are all still available at the players command and can be used as decent counters against players who feint heavily.

    I tend to feint a lot and am still killed often by aggressive play and counter feints. It’s not a steamroller mechanic, but it does take a fair bit of skill, intuition and experience to counter it.



  • The feint mechanic should have a shorter window than it currently does. Instead of being able to cancel the attack up to and including 50% of the attack, or whatever percentage it’s currently at, make it 40% and even shorter, or nonexistant, for incredibly fast weapons like daggers. This would put it where it needs to be. Against skilled players, it would become the action you use to break the rhythm between constant parry counters, allowing you to throw off the other players rhythm and get in the attack you need. It would still work as intended against lower skilled opponents because they’re often just keying off of your initial movement anyway and don’t quite know how to wait out their blocks.

    Very, very good solution.



  • @MUSASHI:

    Feinting becomes fundamentally broken at close range/facehug range.

    Anyone who defends this broken mechanic is going to kill this game. Chivalry is already low skill enough as it is, keeping a luck based mechanic in the game is going to shape the meta in stupid ways.

    Keep in mind I think feinting is OK at medium range/arms length, but it just doesn’t work when both players move close to eachother. It’s a design oversight that happened when they linked feinting to the windup animation.

    Why didn’t you agree with me last time we had a topic on this?

    Ahh well, it’s good you finally see the light.

    Close range feinting is completely screwed, and it has been since day one. It places an artificial skill ceiling on the game that is especially apparent in 1v1 situations. The solution however is not to completely gut the feint, it is to slightly change how feinting works.

    It simple, switch feinting from working all the way through windup to only part of the way through windup (maybe 80% if I feel like throwing a number around). This will split the stages of the animation in to feintable windup, non-feintable windup and release. By doing this, the time taken for any non-feinted attack remains the same, and you can still throw people off. However, you will allow people to block safely during this non-feintable windup phase.

    Now why the hell is it important that you should be able to safely block a feint during the end stages of windup rather than the first point of release like you must currently?

    That’s because it’s so damn easy to end the windup part of your feint animation either in, or incredibly close to your enemy’s hitbox, making it impossible to distinguish a feint from a released attack before getting hit.

    Doing this changes non-shielded higher level play, especially in duels and certain lts situations from a probabilistic thing in to something that’s deterministic. I don’t see why that could be considered bad in any respect. Anyway, this thread will be ignored and the feint will remain a luck based mechanic; it is now clear that the developers want it this way.



  • @HEXEN:

    The feint mechanic should have a shorter window than it currently does. Instead of being able to cancel the attack up to and including 50% of the attack,or whatever percentage it’s currently at, make it 40% and even shorter, or nonexistant, for incredibly fast weapons like daggers. This would put it where it needs to be. Against skilled players, it would become the action you use to break the rhythm between constant parry counters, allowing you to throw off the other players rhythm and get in the attack you need.It would still work as intended against lower skilled opponents because they’re often just keying off of your initial movement anyway and don’t quite know how to wait out their blocks.

    I like this. A relatively minor nerf, just what is needed. Or even just a slight stamina increase.

    All those crying feint OP are being over dramatic.



  • All those crying feint OP are being over dramatic.

    No-one is crying feint OP. All we are saying is that it’s a bad mechanic when applied to 1-handed weapons, reducing the combat to guesswork.



  • I feel like restricting feint to only half the windup isn’t going to change anything with especially fast weapons, which is where the problem lies. Using the hatchet for example, half the windup would be .15 seconds. So you have .15 seconds to “react” to it after determining it’s too late in his swing to feint (assuming you can accurately measure .15 seconds in the first place).

    I could just say “Nobody will be able to react to it, so it won’t make a difference” but I think this will be more effective: I’m swinging my hatchet - did you block in time after taking .15 seconds to determine if it was a feint or not?



  • @Bloodhead:

    All those crying feint OP are being over dramatic.

    No-one is crying feint OP. All we are saying is that it’s a bad mechanic when applied to 1-handed weapons, reducing the combat to guesswork.

    Actually I am absolutely saying that in its current state feinting is overpowered.

    @SlyGoat:

    I feel like restricting feint to only half the windup isn’t going to change anything with especially fast weapons, which is where the problem lies. Using the hatchet for example, half the windup would be .15 seconds. So you have .15 seconds to “react” to it after determining it’s too late in his swing to feint (assuming you can accurately measure .15 seconds in the first place).

    I could just say “Nobody will be able to react to it, so it won’t make a difference” but I think this will be more effective: I’m swinging my hatchet - did you block in time after taking .15 seconds to determine if it was a feint or not?

    The problem as you point out is with fast weapons especially.

    Also, that .15 seconds is used not exclusively to determine if it’s a feint, you also have to devote mental resources to accurately spot where the attack is coming from, activate parry, and move your screen in the proper direction. Against maces and hatchets, just parrying attacks from a good maa (that dodges a bit past you and then swings) is quite tricky. Throwing it feints just makes it laughably impossible for a defensive player to defend against.

    I just woke up, but my average reaction time in that test was 220 ms. Surprisingly in-game I feel my reflexes are superior to most, so that’s a bit confusing.



  • I entirely agree with OP.

    A possible method is to allow to feint out of parries, but only at the start of your parry (so it doesn’t turn into guaranteed parry spamming method) and incurs a slight cooldown, but leaves you enough time to parry their followup attack.

    As an average player I’ve found that you just gotta go on the offensive every time. If they parry your first attack, follow up with a feint. 90% of the time it works lol just don’t let them start the feinting



  • I just woke up, but my average reaction time in that test was 220 ms. Surprisingly in-game I feel my reflexes are superior to most, so that’s a bit confusing.

    Several things can alter that test result such as mouse polling rate or input latency or monitor refresh rate.

    I got 190ms but who cares.

    It’s not a true test of reaction speed.



  • This discussion has already happened here: http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6934

    I´ve defined that if the time between starting an attack and the point of no return is shorter than aproximately 0.2 secs it really is a guessing game.
    However, after 170 hours play I found a couple ways to deal with feinting players: Against one-handers it´s all about keeping distance. You simply CANNOT allow a MAA to get close. If he´s skilled you´re as good as dead. If you´re playing as the MAA you have to manipulate your movement with dodging and 180 degree-spring-turns to avoid getting hit.
    Against two-handers you just parry at the last possible second but that takes a looooooooot of practice.



  • @UnknownXV:

    I need to make a video showcasing high-level dueling without feinting, because the absolute last thing it is, is slow paced. I don’t feel feinting is necessary at all.

    You know I’m always around if you want to do a showcase bud ;) I’ve got my fraps ready.

    I agree with Radiant’s argument completely and I also agree that battles without feints are WAY more fun and intense. If feinting is kept in the game it should have a lot longer windup and cooldown.



  • If they touch feinting, it needs to be on a weapon to weapon basis. For some weapons, like a fast falchion it makes them Insanely powerful. But for slow poke weapons like a Brandi Stock, you need feinting just to make it even remotely useable in a 1v 1 situation(or any situation).



  • @ChuckingIt:

    If they touch feinting, it needs to be on a weapon to weapon basis. For some weapons, like a fast falchion it makes them Insanely powerful. But for slow poke weapons like a Brandi Stock, you need feinting just to make it even remotely useable in a 1v 1 situation(or any situation).

    Well you can still drag the brandistock around blocks. If they can’t change feints individually on every weapon I’d rather they just increase its windup and cooldown across the board rather than leave it like is now.



  • Rank 43 throwing my hat in the ring here.

    Feinting as it is now is just not a skilled or fun mechanic. Yes, if I know someone’s gonna feint, and i have the right range/setup, I can kick or attack before he does maybe. Doesn’t mean crap, I’m not having fun with this, recovery allowing hit trading, these retarded ghost animations, or interrupting someone’s swing with a hit then them suddenly swinging again somehow. All anti-fun for me.

    The fact this patch has been this way for so long is slightly depressing, but a new patch is incoming and I can’t wait.

    Also, no, looking down while overhead also works for 1handers, it just doesn’t cut as much time down as a 2h. Look down overheads in this current state, I think, is stupid and makes no sense. I think overheads shouldn’t have any effect on the speed of your swing, only the enemy’s position in relation to yours.

    However, I do like q existing, another tweak should do it?



  • @Dr.Nick:

    @ChuckingIt:

    If they touch feinting, it needs to be on a weapon to weapon basis. For some weapons, like a fast falchion it makes them Insanely powerful. But for slow poke weapons like a Brandi Stock, you need feinting just to make it even remotely useable in a 1v 1 situation(or any situation).

    Well you can still drag the brandistock around blocks. If they can’t change feints individually on every weapon I’d rather they just increase its windup and cooldown across the board rather than leave it like is now.

    Dr. Nick has it. Brandistock’s slowness, and the retarded delay on pokes, allows you to poke next to someone, wait for their parry to end, and swing it into them, ignoring their parry. You don’t need feint with this weapon, just some good angles, and delayed poking.



  • Honestly, and I know this will probably never happen because it’s past release now, but I’d rather see feints removed entirely and have just about every weapon in the game, with the exception of daggers, sped up significantly in the windup, release and recovery stages (obviously maintaining the spectrum of speeds we have now, just within a smaller range). I’ll throw a party the day this game becomes entirely skill-based again and throws any small bit of luck-based gameplay down the drain. I loved the game much more in Alpha when feints didn’t exist (and even when they were first implemented, we could hold our parries for up to a second, and would work great in conjunction with feinting and changing the attacking direction we are getting in the upcoming patch so the skill then comes from blocking correctly), but that is all a personal thing of course, as I played Age of Chivalry religiously for 5 years previously where there was absolutely no guesswork involved, and despite the extreme learning curve, remained entirely skill-based. Maybe we’ll have to look at trying it out in a Mod or something.

    As for ‘balancing’ feints right now, I haven’t got the foggiest idea where to even begin, except for still backing up one of SlyGoat’s old posts that feinting should have to be something that you commit to, just like an attack, parry, or kick, and you face the consequences and get penalised if you miss. Additionally, considerably ramp up the stamina cost of feints, so they are extremely limited in duels - after all, a truly good player will ensure they land a hit after you fall for one of their feints, and feints are ‘free-hits’ when a good player can use them properly.

    I personally feel screwing with limiting feints during windup times will actually change very little. Feinting with 1h weapons will remain superior to feinting with 2h weapons no matter what you do as it’s all tied to windup times and fast weapons just work so well with feints. The Maul has a 0.7s windup, compared to parry+parry recovery being 1.0s. If you reduce the feintable windup time on the Maul, feinting on the Maul becomes 100% worthless (it’s close to worthless right now in 1v1, but there is a very small window where feinting does work with the Maul and you have to look down to take advantage of it) and a complete and utter waste of stamina, and then compare that to say, a Broadsword, where changing the feintable windup time will actually change nothing whatsoever even if you think it will.



  • The best solution to balance it, for now, is to increase the stamina cost to use it significantly. Make it a situational thing. That balances it fairly well for normal gameplay. Although in duels I still feel it just shouldn’t even be there at all.



  • @UnknownXV:

    The best solution to balance it, for now, is to increase the stamina cost to use it significantly. Make it a situational thing. That balances it fairly well for normal gameplay. Although in duels I still feel it just shouldn’t even be there at all.

    That hardly helps at all though :\ Close up feints will still be unavoidable sighs


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