"Meant to be That Way" topic



  • I feel like there are a number of complaints that repeatedly come up, of things that people think are flaws or bugs or exploits or abuses that may really be elements of the game that were intended. Sometimes discussions get into long arguments about whether such and such is a flaw or intended and its often hard to find a source for who is right.

    So I would like to suggest a topic with an official list of such things verified by Torn Banner as “this was meant to be that way”.



  • That would be a pretty long list. Most things in the game are meant to be there. What specifically are you confused about?



  • @SlyGoat:

    That would be a pretty long list. Most things in the game are meant to be there. What specifically are you confused about?

    I know it’s not meant to be funny, but laughed anyway. ;)

    And you’re right. Most things are indeed meant to be there, what i think he means is clarification from torn banner in the complaining threads, which would be impractical.



  • I like your idea!

    Not only that discussions could eventually come to an end or some aspects that are considered to be “flaws” might become accepted, but it would also be an awesome way for the devs to keep their community updated!
    I quite often wonder if a certain problem in the game mechanics is meant to be that way or if they’re going to do something about it. Creating topics about the one or other issues doesn’t really help, because we get no idea whether dev’s are aware of it, if they decided to change something and what they’re planning on.
    E.g. subjects like the flinch, pavise shield or certain weaponbalance issue weren’t dealt with in the betapatch, we have no idea if there will be a change in the final release, in another patch or if they don’t ever gonna change it. All discussion is obselete. Even if we knew they’d “fix” flinch + recovery for example, and everyone would agree their solution is fine, it would make everyone way more happy to know the change is coming (even without deadline) than “hope” for the future.

    Additionally, if there were a list of highly discussed issues all the devs had to do is quote the list and post yes / no / maybe at the very least. They wouldn’t have to write the issue down on their own, just a brief respond or a more comprehensive if they got more than just a few seconds to spare. Plus we could collect links to all relevant discussion threads about given problem.

    Here’s my first one for the list:
    -Is SlyGoat meant to be a Moderator or did it just “happen”? Is it going to be fixed? ;PP
    To the discussion thread



  • @SlyGoat:

    That would be a pretty long list. Most things in the game are meant to be there. What specifically are you confused about?

    I’d like to hear final answer from devs about sweetspots like in WotR. YES/NO, it’s simple.



  • @Escadin:

    Here’s my first one for the list:
    -Is Slygoat meant to be a Moderator or did it just “happen”? Is it going to be fixed? ;PP

    lol!

    Also if you can compile a list of common questions into a simple list, we can forward them to the devs. We’re hoping to start getting more feedback for you guys soon, so this would help immensely to address everyone’s common questions! :)



  • I don’t want to pass on all the work but I think the best way would be If there was a Sticky Thread created and maintained by a mod in general discussion forum. Suggestions to what should be added to the list could be made via replies and the mod decides what gets on the list (probably state some simply rules like “issue has been a topic once at least” / “Add a link to this discussion” etc…).
    This makes sure we have little redundancy, the list is up to date and we only have serious points on it. Dev’s could reply with quotes either directly (which then has to be copied to OP) or in another thread.
    It would be much like our bug report thread, just for balance questions.



  • @Escadin:

    I don’t want to pass on all the work but I think the best way would be If there was a Sticky Thread created and maintained by a mod in general discussion forum. Suggestions to what should be added to the list could be made via replies and the mod decides what gets on the list (probably state some simply rules like “issue has been a topic once at least” / “Add a link to this discussion” etc…).
    This makes sure we have little redundancy, the list is up to date and we only have serious points on it. Dev’s could reply with quotes either directly (which then has to be copied to OP) or in another thread.
    It would be much like our bug report thread, just for balance questions.

    This one. Or something else. Just make the devs do some statements on important matters :/



  • To reply to SlyGoat I’m not just talking about “most things”, I’m talking about things that come up repeatedly as things people think are bugged or just unintended consequences of game mechanics that people are abusing. Examples would be

    • the issues with flinching (I assume there really is a bug in the flinching mechanic, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen confirmation)
    • the ability to swing around your weapon’s point of damage during the thrust or sprint.
    • the ability to look down to speed up contact by an overhand
    • the fact that punches are so unrealistically effective

    I’m sure there are others that aren’t occurring to me right now. Kind of a sticky FAQ about some of the less obvious game mechanics and balance decisions.



  • I have another one to add to that list, which I can only describe as “what is the intended context of weapon and class balance”. For example, it seems to me that that all weapons are not equal in all situations…some may not work so well in 1-on-1-duel or against a certain class, etc. If that it true it would seem they are intended to be balanced in so far as they each have contexts in which they are not an inferior weapon to be using.

    The same may or may not be true of classes. Are classes intended to be balanced equally in a dueling situation, and also in a free-for-all situation, and also in a TO situation, etc., or is the intention implicit in the balancing that a given class might be at little bit of a disadvantage in one game type but has a little bit of a advantage in another game type.

    A lot of discussions about such-and-such class or weapon is over-powered / underpowered tend to wind up in an example of how that class or weapon is OP or UP in say, a 1-on-1 duel. The discussion then goes nowhere because some people assume this is a problem, and others assume that it is just an intended part of the game balance. So I feel like having an answer on this would be helpful.



  • Have more information to share so I can answer these now. Responses in red because breaking this quote would be messy.

    @ericjs:

    To reply to SlyGoat I’m not just talking about “most things”, I’m talking about things that come up repeatedly as things people think are bugged or just unintended consequences of game mechanics that people are abusing. Examples would be

    • the issues with flinching (I assume there really is a bug in the flinching mechanic, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen confirmation)
      Recognized and being worked on - possibly fixed next patch
    • the ability to swing around your weapon’s point of damage during the thrust or sprint.
      I don’t actually know what you mean by this.
    • the ability to look down to speed up contact by an overhand
      Intended, but possibly under review.
    • the fact that punches are so unrealistically effective
      Intended - they may be unrealistically effective, but they’re not as effective as any weapon; they have to at least be capable of killing someone or there’s no reason to have them in the game. It’s equivalent to a knife in an FPS.

    I’m sure there are others that aren’t occurring to me right now. Kind of a sticky FAQ about some of the less obvious game mechanics and balance decisions.

    @ericjs:

    I have another one to add to that list, which I can only describe as “what is the intended context of weapon and class balance”. For example, it seems to me that that all weapons are not equal in all situations…some may not work so well in 1-on-1-duel or against a certain class, etc. If that it true it would seem they are intended to be balanced in so far as they each have contexts in which they are not an inferior weapon to be using.

    The same may or may not be true of classes. Are classes intended to be balanced equally in a dueling situation, and also in a free-for-all situation, and also in a TO situation, etc., or is the intention implicit in the balancing that a given class might be at little bit of a disadvantage in one game type but has a little bit of a advantage in another game type.

    A lot of discussions about such-and-such class or weapon is over-powered / underpowered tend to wind up in an example of how that class or weapon is OP or UP in say, a 1-on-1 duel. The discussion then goes nowhere because some people assume this is a problem, and others assume that it is just an intended part of the game balance. So I feel like having an answer on this would be helpful.

    The game is balanced primarily for Team Objective. The Knight is the overall strongest class in terms of armor and weapons, but is lacking in mobility - when he’s on an objective either defending it or pushing it, he’s very good at holding his ground. Vanguards and Archers serve relatively the same purpose - they both do very heavy damage while staying safely out of reach, so they can assist the Knights with constant jabs/arrows. Men-at-Arms are superior duelists - they’re very good at fighting their own terms, and can bait enemies away from a fight to take them on 1v1 or just constantly harass them and force them to divide their attention. However, it’s difficult for them to fight a Knight on his terms, as the Knight can generally ignore his baiting attempts and just trudge on to the objectve - they don’t have the slow and easy to avoid weapons the Vanguard has, and can effectively survive 50% longer (3 hits instead of 2), so the game plan is generally to kill or distract the Knight’s support (VGs and archers) and let your team overwhelm them.

    This class dynamic generally works in Last Team Standing, while in duels you never seen Vanguards and in FFA they’re the best class because their high damage high reach dynamic works best against enemies who have their attention divided and can’t focus all their efforts on killing the Vanguard.

    FFA and duels are the two modes considered least for balancing purposes, because they’re the hardest to balance for without throwing off the balance of TO or LTS, which are the main competitive gamemodes - and thus need to be the focus of balance.



    • the ability to swing around your weapon’s point of damage during the thrust or sprint.

    Stab dragging.



  • Weapon dragging is of course intended. Looking down to overhead is being reviewed, however, particularly the mechanic that treats whiffing an attack on the ground the same as being parried, allowing you to immediately parry. And I’m personally of the opinion that stabs should have far shorter release periods, because stabs acting like lightsabers is silly.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    • the ability to swing around your weapon’s point of damage during the thrust or sprint.

    Stab dragging.

    OMG yes, major exploited now. People doing it with long swords, they are able to stab and move it around like someone said, a lightsaber. It’s dumb but a lot of people are using it and it’s kinda lame.

    Bashing through a shield

    Stabbing someone in the back, but they block it

    Weapons going through people, vanguard for example, the pole arm goes through someone and not even a dent.

    the lag kill, you step out of the way to avoid a swing, you see the guy missed you but gets you and you sort of warp back. (< 40ms ping here), happens with most classes, guy kills you stabbing air.



    • Is it intended that Halberd’s stab is faster than Spear’s

    • Is it intended that the Halberd is a shotgun with its stab at point blank? (I mean is faster than a bullet)

    • How could looking at the ground logically make faster contact with an overhead?

    • The in-game stat navigation gives false damage numbers. Why don’t you give their damage value instead of a percentage, and leave mitigation the only unattended stat?

    • If Hunting Dagger is good at overheads and slashes, and Thrusting Dagger is good at stab spam, why would anyone use a Broad Dagger?

    • If so many weapons one shot an Archer, why are Javelins not part of the MAA class?

    • Assuming Javelins were part of the MAA’s line up, and assuming picking the Javelin meant you couldn’t dodge, what weapon would the Archer’s get to compensate?



  • @DeminRamst:

    • Is it intended that Halberd’s stab is faster than Spear’s

    • Is it intended that the Halberd is a shotgun with its stab at point blank? (I mean is faster than a bullet)

    They are slowing the stab down, as well as reducing the slashing damage of the halberd in the next patch.



  • @ChuckingIt:

    @DeminRamst:

    • Is it intended that Halberd’s stab is faster than Spear’s

    • Is it intended that the Halberd is a shotgun with its stab at point blank? (I mean is faster than a bullet)

    They are slowing the stab down, as well as reducing the slashing damage of the halberd in the next patch.

    But do they want it to still be faster than spear?
    And is it intended that stab does damage at the beginning of the stab instead of after the thrust?
    is more the questions I was hinting at.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    • the ability to swing around your weapon’s point of damage during the thrust or sprint.

    Stab dragging.

    The only situation where I feel stab dragging is acceptable is in the pole arm category. The billhook/halberd have spikes and hooks on them for a reason… stabbing between someone’s legs and then pulling the billhook through their crotch was a known and practiced tactic, for example.

    With the swords though, it’s just ridiculous. While you could argue drawing the blade back to cut your opponent is a legit tactic, it shouldn’t cause as much damage as it does (and the damage type should go from pierce to slashing).

    I would like to see the stab’s damage model change throughout the blow. Full piercing damage should only connect up to and ending once the stab has reached its furthest extent. After that, the damage should be reduced and changed to slashing.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Weapon dragging is of course intended. Looking down to overhead is being reviewed, however, particularly the mechanic that treats whiffing an attack on the ground the same as being parried, allowing you to immediately parry. And I’m personally of the opinion that stabs should have far shorter release periods, because stabs acting like lightsabers is silly.

    Both of these points should definitely be fixes. Having someone stab the air in front of you, then taking full damage because you sprinted forward for a counter-attack and their blade was still just kind of hanging there, is almost as silly as smacking a wall or the floor and being able to immediately recover with a block.



  • @Daiyuki:

    @SlyGoat:

    Weapon dragging is of course intended. Looking down to overhead is being reviewed, however, particularly the mechanic that treats whiffing an attack on the ground the same as being parried, allowing you to immediately parry. And I’m personally of the opinion that stabs should have far shorter release periods, because stabs acting like lightsabers is silly.

    Both of these points should definitely be fixes. Having someone stab the air in front of you, then taking full damage because you sprinted forward for a counter-attack and their blade was still just kind of hanging there, is almost as silly as smacking a wall or the floor and being able to immediately recover with a block.

    To be fair, if you sprint into a spear you’re going to kill yourself even if the guy holding the spear isn’t thrusting forward ;)

    But yes, recovering animations for stabs should be a little more of an instantaneous transition, like the weapon tip being tilted downwards after the release is over as the weapon is being drawn back. Something that doesn’t look silly but isn’t too subtle to notice.


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