New Class - The Bannerman



  • Max limit 1 bannerman per team

    Armor/Health: Archer Values
    Speed: Vanguard
    Weapons: Secondaries choices only, no offhand choices.
    Special skill: Banner placement - team can spawn at this location instead of default spawn point. Banner cannot be replenished at ammo crates. Banners are destructible with 1 hit by a 2h or bodkin arrow and 2 hits by all other weapons & broadhead arrows. Banner is hammered into the ground (5s to deploy banner). Banner cannot be picked back up by the Bannerman.

    The Bannerman offers utility in the place of combat value. The potential to spawn in a forward deployment with the consequence of armor, health, and weapon selection. The Bannerman calls forth additional forces to battle and is a critical factor to a sustained attack or defense.



  • This comes straight from Battlefield and its not realy a Class.
    You could just give any single player the flag.
    Also maps are not ballanced anymore if you can just spawn 10 people on the objective

    Finaly ask yourself : Does it ad something to game, that cannot be removed without losing quality.



  • Full disclaimer, elliott and I are on the same team and have previously discussed this concept.

    A) No, it doesn’t come straight from Battlefield. The concept of a “forward” spawn has been in many team, objective based FPS games.

    B) Its a separate class to create interesting choices in strategy, specifically in a competitive enviornment. As he pointed out, he neutered the Bannerman’s effectiveness in combat for the good of the team having a potentially huge advantage as a forward spawn. I think he went a little far in neutering it but the intention is correct.

    C) Re maps not being balanced, kill the banner then. Once again, it makes everything more interesting when you have to choose between getting on radius of the bomb cart to prevent it from moving or going to kill the forward deploy.

    As an alternative, you could not create a separate class but rather let the Vanguard equip the flag in the primary slot. The concept of a forward deploy is intrinsically a part of the term “Vanguard” so this would be a historically accurate move as well. The Vanguard would then only be able to equip a secondary for his attack –-- a good balance considering the Vanguard’s traditional heavy damage dealing primaries with serious range.



  • @TheFunnySide:

    This comes straight from Battlefield and its not realy a Class.
    You could just give any single player the flag.
    Also maps are not ballanced anymore if you can just spawn 10 people on the objective

    Finaly ask yourself : Does it ad something to game, that cannot be removed without losing quality.

    Many games employ tactics to get players back to the main battle sooner. Spawn beacons, flags, spawning on teammates, deployment choices, revives, etc. all to make game play more strategic and liven up the pace.



  • Strategy is something like A uses rock , B counters with paper.
    To place a forwart Spawn point is not Strategy , there is no draw back for you, and you dont do it in reaction to what your opponent does, you just place it as close to the objective as you can.
    Your Opponent also cant realy counter this ,because they have to focus on defending the objective
    And have you ever tried to raid someones spawn? I tell you its like an Ant nest .
    Numbers mean so much in this game , if you manage to spawn just 10 of your guys near an objective and its your win.
    The Flag does not even need to survive just one wave is so gamechanging



  • This class idea, for me, does not seem at all like a good tradeoff of balance vs. fun factor. Once you plant your flag, you’re just a slow archer with no ranged weapon? Jeez I would hate to be designated as “that guy” in a clan match. This class also doesn’t serve a purpose in the Last Team Standing game mode, (or FFA but FFA shouldn’t really be considered for balance or gameplay purposes anyway) and in fact would likely not be used at all in small-team scrims, which will likely be the majority of scrims, because you’d be better off having another capable player than a better spawn location. And of course, the only time you’ll likely see him in a pub match is for trolling purposes like planting a spawn flag on the edge of a cliff. At the same time, I can see this potentially ruining the balance of larger competitive clan battles, like a 10v10 Team Objective. Sneak the flag guy near the objective and you’ve basically just won.



  • i personaly dont like the ideal … would make TO matches unbalanced … plus it would be the greatest troll tool ever … set the banner near a lake or a clif and enjoy the mass suicides … or ppls would simply camp the banner …



  • Remember…both teams would have a banner. Like a previous suggestion, if a vanguard was banner-capable, he would still have a secondary, decent hp/armor, and a sprint attack to utilize. I agree that LTS would have no use for the banner, same as how no game modes have a use for an archer with crossbow.

    Small team scrims would absolutely use this and I would feel like it would quite possibly be the most important thing in the match. The team has the option to spawn on the flag, not mandatory. Saying “no” because of troll possibilities is like shooting teammates with 1 arrow out of spawn to troll…

    Sneaking the banner and maintaining it would be difficult…remember an archer can kill the thing.



  • Sounds unnecessary and anti-fun to gameplay. 8-)



  • I would argue against mobile spawn points as these would be unbalanced, especially in TO.

    If however, you would like a new class, the bannerman could also be a tad different from what you propose and be more balanced. In medieval warfare standards, banners and pennons were commonly seen as each household or company had its own. It was useful for commanders at the onset of battles and could also serve as a rallying point during or after battle.

    Fighting together offers a strong tactical advantage in Chivalry and is especially seen in competitive play. On public servers it is mostly absent. Improved voice support might make it more feasible but another approach might be to have a bannerman. He’d be a vanguard and wield an elongated spear with banner which can i) be seen visually by teammates ii) provide a bonus to teammates in its radius in stamina and health regeneration (small, but useful enough) and iii) slightly decreases movement speed of all in its radius - all these if the banner is raised (toggle on/off). The bannerman can move with a raised banner but is unable to attack.

    If the times comes to defend himself, the banner becomes a slower but slightly longer spear - dropping the health regeneration bonus and speed decrease but maintaining stamina regeneration.

    The amount of bannerman would be limited to 30% (to prevent odd situations in public play). The bonus to teammates in radius of regeneration and its speed penalty do not stack if multiple bannerman are present.

    Game impact: it would provide an incentive for the team to defend the bannerman and remain in formation - with bannerman and archers in the back. If knights in the front are seriously injured they can move back and get a bonus to stamina and health regeneration. Speed decrease makes the body of men slower, but should also promote them to steadily walk towards their opponent/objective. If the time comes the bannerman can defend himself to some degree. Having multiple would make them a very slow hitting mass of spearman, easily overcome I can imagine. One bannerman in the back might help - in the heat of battle he might help with the reach of his spear and stamina regeneration, afterwards he can raise the banner and help keep everyone in formation to recover from battle wounds.

    Not sure if it would be balanced in the form I propose though, but I am looking forward to your opinions.



  • Not a fan.

    Why?

    Well for one thing, you suggest it be a class…. so if that’s the case, what happens when you have multiple people select that class and have dozens of spawn banners across the map?

    Only one per team? Then who gets to pick the class?

    If they pick that class, and others think he’s doing a crap job or just want to take the class themselves, then you have another reason for Vote Kicks to be abused and people getting kicked left, right and centre.

    What’s stopping somoene from planting one of these things right outside of the enemy’s spawn and thus, stone wall the other team and prevent them from getting anywhere when everybody is spawning in the same location… while one or two guys sneak off in the back to finish the objective from their original spawns?

    On the flip side… maybe some idiot on your team plants this banner in a very bad spot, get’s killed and then the enemy team just sits there surrounding the banner, waiting to (for any better term) “Base Rape” anybody who spawns there before they have a chance to even fart.

    Is this banner magical and made from Merlin’s own private stash of toilet paper, where it can make soldiers magically appear out of thin air on the battlefield?

    It has the potential to make one big cluster Fk out of the game.

    Yes, Battlefield, Red Orchestra 2, and a number of other games have similar things where you can spawn on team mates or squad leaders (for RO2, you can only spawn on a squad leader if they are not in direct sight of an enemy, which makes idiot players who pick that class just hide in a trench the whole round, doing nothing but being a mobile spawn point & not using the class properly.)

    I personally hate spawning like this…. here you are up against one guy who’s an easy kill because they did something stupid, and suddenly 5 other guys magically appear out of nowhere around him and you’re killed.

    This banner idea isn’t any better. It doesn’t suit the kind of game this is and the map areas are not big enough to need such a system, especially when battles are concentrated in specific areas of the overall map based on the current objectives…

    … you already only have to run about 30 seconds max before you reach the battle… there’s no point.

    This idea get’s Praxius’ezes Stamp of Unapproval. thump

    Next……



  • … Now with that messy business out of the way:

    If you would like to change the parameters of this Banner Class, like removing this spawn ability and replace it with a moral boosting system, then I could agree with having something like that in the game.

    Morale Boost:
    The Banner Class has the weakest armour, but the fastest speed…. one hit from anybody will kill him, but for every player near him in proximity will move slightly faster and take a slight less amount of damage, while at the same time, the banner class gains points for every 10 seconds, multiplied by the amount of players he boosts during that time. (subject to change, based on score balance)

    Points do not start to tally unless he has at least 4-5 players around him…. this will not only incline him to stick with the team and not just sit at spawn getting points from one guy camping, but will also incline other players to stick by him and defend him. Think of the Medic in TF2 healing other attacking players, but not as excessive of a boost to his team mates as the TF2 medic due to being a booster to more than just one player… he only gives players maybe a 3-5% boost maximum in movement speed and damage taking… attacks are the same with or without the banner guy around.

    One hit kills are meant more towards archers trying to drop him from a distance since most of his team mates will be in front of him protecting him so they continue to gain that slight boost/advantage. If both teams have their banner class in the thick of it, then their boosts are still active, but cancel one another… thus more incentive for the other team to try and target the banner guy so they gain the upper hand.

    This would also work as a slight deterrent for some players who just want to run off and rambo on their own… and would make people want to stick together more.

    The only form of attack the banner class would have would be a knock back attack with the flag, similar to a kick, which produces little to no damage, but could keep him alive long enough until team mates arrive to his aid.

    And he can also parry with the banner pole, but besides parry and knock back, that’s it… he holds the banner for morale, nothing more.



  • Cpt-Praxius, see last post on page 1 for my suggestion which is slightly different from what you propose. I like it more because reduced damage seems less balanced then increased regeneration with a speed decrease.

    Also, I think being able to one hit the class would make him a no-no in small TO or LTS.



  • I don’t actually hate your concept of an area of effect boost for the banner, but it sort of makes me laugh that you talk about “Merlin’s magic toilet paper” for the respawn idea, yet you are comfortable giving people a damage and speed boost because of the banner……magic indeed. Further, do you honestly think anyone would deploy this strategy for a 3-5% gain? That is not even noticeable.

    Everyone is also concerned about putting the spawn in a bad spot/good spot like its some huge disaster waiting to happen. If its in a bad spot, DONT SPAWN ON IT, select original spawn — its your CHOICE. If its in a good spot, the opponent can KILL IT so its not like ooooppps I got this banner here in the spawn and the game is over. This concept’s pub utility is low so don’t think about it in the context of pubbing too much. I can tell none of you have played a game competitively with forward deploys / spawn beacons / spawn on teammates. I do agree with you that spawn on teammates/squad leaders is a bad mechanic, but I very much like the concept of a purpose built class/ability within a class to provide this possibility in some way.



  • A flag / banner in the battlefield was a morale booster as well as a means for coordination…. It was never a spawning system. Ever hear of those battles in the past where if the guy with the flag fell, someone had to pick it up right away and keep going? There were reasons for that.

    http://www.themedievalclassroom.com.au/?page_id=1069

    also, check out the history of the 19th century regarding flag/banner carriers.

    They helped identify who was who on the battlefield, they were used as rallying points and were used for morale.

    I was trying to meet you halfway with this idea to make it seem useful and not so gamey, while making such a class useful in the game in a balanced manner, but if you’re hell bent on sticking with your silly idea that apparently few, if any actually like, then go ahead… I’ll just say it’s a crap idea that nobody but yourself likes and will never get beyond being your little brain fart.

    And when you think about it, 5% boost to existing abilities is actually quite noticeable. Beyond that it easily becomes pretty overpowering and unbalanced, leading to people demanding the class be removed. My suggestion was only a starting point, which could be tweaked up or down after some testing or discussion on the matter.

    But now I wouldn’t want this new class in the game based on principle via your attitude… And now I’ll just fight the idea.

    There is no need for this class, the battle areas are not large enough to warrant some lame mobile spawn and there are too many problems that will arise from such an idea, which you have yet to properly address other than “don’t use it”

    Don’t use it?

    Then if that’s the case and it’s not only going to be prone to abuse, exploitation and not worth most to use it due to the risks or impracticality, why have it added to the game and waste development time in the first place?

    Way to win the argument for your cause. :|

    And yes, I have played other games with forward spawning attributes. I’ve played BFBC2 (hate it) and RO2, among others… Both of which have much larger maps areas than what’s in Chivalry and has a reason for them being in the game. Chivalry is sectioned off, which means in most maps, you can’t wander off beyond a certain point… And I don’t remember any current maps in Chivalry that are so large that it takes me more than 30 seconds to get to where I need to be.

    And once you are done with one section of the map, you have a different spawn area which is further ahead from where you originally started.



  • @chuckinbeast:

    I don’t actually hate your concept of an area of effect boost for the banner, but it sort of makes me laugh that you talk about “Merlin’s magic toilet paper” for the respawn idea, yet you are comfortable giving people a damage and speed boost because of the banner……magic indeed.

    Not particularily… People fight much harder when they have high morale, so why would this not be the case for these in-game guys?

    @chuckinbeast:

    Further, do you honestly think anyone would deploy this strategy for a 3-5% gain? That is not even noticeable. Everyone is also concerned about putting the spawn in a bad spot/good spot like its some huge disaster waiting to happen. If its in a bad spot, DONT SPAWN ON IT, select original spawn –- its your CHOICE. If its in a good spot, the opponent can KILL IT so its not like ooooppps I got this banner here in the spawn and the game is over. This concept’s pub utility is low so don’t think about it in the context of pubbing too much. I can tell none of you have played a game competitively with forward deploys / spawn beacons / spawn on teammates. I do agree with you that spawn on teammates/squad leaders is a bad mechanic, but I very much like the concept of a purpose built class/ability within a class to provide this possibility in some way.

    3-5% gain is quite noticeable on more damaging weapons like the Zweihander, Warhammer, and Maul.



  • Your willingness to accept “30 seconds” as an appropriate amount of time to get back in the action tells me we are on a very different wavelengths with regards to gaming attributes. That is the crux of our disagreement. I’ll also point out this suggestion was mostly with the competitive scene in mind. It seems that you focus on pubbing, so it doesn’t surprise me that you cannot see the merits of the suggestion. But in any event, thanks for the input that what these boards are for to flush out ideas.


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