Archery



  • @BettySwallsack:

    I think most problems people have with archers can be boiled down to one thing: they’re annoying. That’s it. It’s the same reason people complain about daggers or fists, and it’s the reason people hate snipers in other games. Nobody likes being killed by these weapons. It makes them feel helpless. And this feeling of helplessness gets mistaken for the weapon being overpowered, when in reality that is far from the truth.

    Naw, archery is dead easy in this game. People are in general quite slow, so you don’t have to work too hard to lead your target.

    Then they get to you. 3-hit them with a cudgel. Work complete.



  • Just played some LTS. (im not sure if this will continue to be my favourite game mode)

    Archers, everywhere. Can’t do much, just get arrowed down by people with no learning curve.

    “use a shield” then they hit my legs. “use a shield and crouch” then they aim for the feet. (yes, this has happened)

    Really, Tornbanner Studios? Archery: Medieval Warfare is what you’re going for?

    Edit: IB4 someone says, “uh not every archer has pinpoint accuracy” well, this far into the game, a lot of archers have gotten really good and now there’s little left to do.

    Edit2: plus the new sling that deals 25% of a knight’s hp in damage in the torso, is not a good improvement with its fast operation and low projectile drop.

    It’s not like these archer threads are the most popular on the forums.



  • BettySwallsack has the largest part of it: archery is not particularly fun to play against. Most people play chiv to engage in melee murder simulation. Archery is not that, and indeed, they will go out of their way to stop you from engaging in melee murder simulation by killing you from very, very far away.

    But also, there are legitimately very few defenses against archery. Most chiv dynamics are structured around not being to deal damage until your opponent makes a mistake. Archery is structured around not being able to avoid damage unless your opponent makes a mistake. Good players will lead you and shoot you in the legs as you approach. Sometimes repeatedly.

    Also, archers are really fast and I’m not entirely sure the chase mechanic is working correctly. I was in a duel match vs an archer as knight with kite shield and broadsword running around the throneroom (very hard to corner an archer in throneroom, they have a continuous loop built into the map by jumping off the balconies). I would close in chase range, my dot would turn red, and I would get a huge speed boost - but despite the dot staying red the speed boost decreased as I got closer, and all I could do was perpetually match their speed with them outside of broadsword reach. Duel timer ran out and I exploded because my shins were more banged up than his, I guess. Thankfully, the next two rounds he made stupid mistakes and I cornered him for the win.

    Am I using the chase mechanic wrong? Because I seriously could not get close enough to the archer to hit him. I slowed down just before I got in murdering range for no apparent reason.



  • @DSMatticus:

    Am I using the chase mechanic wrong? Because I seriously could not get close enough to the archer to hit him. I slowed down just before I got in murdering range for no apparent reason.

    You would eventually catch up the archer. If you had unequipped your shield and put it on your back you’d likely have run faster, too.



  • @DSMatticus:

    BettySwallsack has the largest part of it: archery is not particularly fun to play against. Most people play chiv to engage in melee murder simulation. Archery is not that, and indeed, they will go out of their way to stop you from engaging in melee murder simulation by killing you from very, very far away.

    But also, there are legitimately very few defenses against archery. Most chiv dynamics are structured around not being to deal damage until your opponent makes a mistake. Archery is structured around not being able to avoid damage unless your opponent makes a mistake. Good players will lead you and shoot you in the legs as you approach. Sometimes repeatedly.

    Also, archers are really fast and I’m not entirely sure the chase mechanic is working correctly. I was in a duel match vs an archer as knight with kite shield and broadsword running around the throneroom (very hard to corner an archer in throneroom, they have a continuous loop built into the map by jumping off the balconies). I would close in chase range, my dot would turn red, and I would get a huge speed boost - but despite the dot staying red the speed boost decreased as I got closer, and all I could do was perpetually match their speed with them outside of broadsword reach. Duel timer ran out and I exploded because my shins were more banged up than his, I guess. Thankfully, the next two rounds he made stupid mistakes and I cornered him for the win.

    Am I using the chase mechanic wrong? Because I seriously could not get close enough to the archer to hit him. I slowed down just before I got in murdering range for no apparent reason.

    Bad or mediocre archers are fun to play against.

    Defense is proper use of cover and zig-zagging.

    Archers rarely top the scoreboard so not sure what the fuss is.

    Chase mechanic works fine.



  • Archers, everywhere. Can’t do much, just get arrowed down by people with no learning curve.

    “use a shield” then they hit my legs. “use a shield and crouch” then they aim for the feet. (yes, this has happened)

    I agree this can be annoying, but making shielders completely invulnerable to projectiles would defeat the purpose of archers altogether. I don’t have too many problems with archers shooting projectiles myself (especially when I use a tower shield) and I find them more threatening in melee now, because my secondaries are slowed down depending on the size of my weapon.

    My advice is to use sprint forward coupled with strafe keys (“A” or “D”) and change your movement patern to make your patch less obvious to enemy archers. Good archers can get you even through a tower shield, though. Still, if you tied their attention your own archers should be capable of killing them, provided they know how to shoot properly. It’s a team game after all.



  • @Holy.Death:

    Archers, everywhere. Can’t do much, just get arrowed down by people with no learning curve.

    “use a shield” then they hit my legs. “use a shield and crouch” then they aim for the feet. (yes, this has happened)

    I agree this can be annoying, but making shielders completely invulnerable to projectiles would defeat the purpose of archers altogether. I don’t have too many problems with archers shooting projectiles myself (especially when I use a tower shield) and I find them more threatening in melee now, because my secondaries are slowed down depending on the size of my weapon.

    My advice is to use sprint forward coupled with strafe keys (“A” or “D”) and change your movement patern to make your patch less obvious to enemy archers. Good archers can get you even through a tower shield, though. Still, if you tied their attention your own archers should be capable of killing them, provided they know how to shoot properly. It’s a team game after all.

    I definately agree with you, shields are fine and zig-zagging is okay. I just feel that there’s too much accuracy and too many arrows per min, if you get my drift.



  • The archer class reminds me of a problem in an other game: Tribes Ascend
    Now, T:A is a CTF game about going about at high speed, shooting a bunch of absurd weapons (Exploding frisbee guns!) and base attack/defence. And that’s how the game was for quite a while.
    Then, the “Sentinel” class rose to prominence. Armed with a powerful hitscan sniper rifle that allows you to hit a fast moving target with ease, they forced people to go low and slow, the maneuvers required to go fast simply made you too vulnerable to sniper fire. One could argue that T:A lost a huge chunk of its playerbase to this. (That and the shoddy F2P system)

    What makes me bring this up is that the archer has exactly the same problem. Yes, there are tactics to counteract them. Yes, you can kill them (often with ease). Yes, you can avoid them. But doing so simply is not fun. Like the sentinels, Chivalry’s archers are a distraction from all things that make this game good.



  • @soamd:

    The archer class reminds me of a problem in an other game: Tribes Ascend
    Now, T:A is a CTF game about going about at high speed, shooting a bunch of absurd weapons (Exploding frisbee guns!) and base attack/defence. And that’s how the game was for quite a while.
    Then, the “Sentinel” class rose to prominence. Armed with a powerful hitscan sniper rifle that allows you to hit a fast moving target with ease, they forced people to go low and slow, the maneuvers required to go fast simply made you too vulnerable to sniper fire. One could argue that T:A lost a huge chunk of its playerbase to this. (That and the shoddy F2P system)

    What makes me bring this up is that the archer has exactly the same problem. Yes, there are tactics to counteract them. Yes, you can kill them (often with ease). Yes, you can avoid them. But doing so simply is not fun. Like the sentinels, Chivalry’s archers are a distraction from all things that make this game good.

    Quoted for truth. Supports are fun to fight in DOTA 2 and medics are fun to fight in TF2. But the archers in this game as such a huge threat on all fronts.



  • Got to agree here. The game is so much more fun with actual fights between vanguards and knights, then those pesky MAA vultures come warping around you, and archers cowardly pick you off from a distance.
    Archers especially have the annoying ability to drasticly change the game style. What starts of as a nice, fun game can easily turn into a slow paced game of hiding and dodging from cover to cover… Something really needs to be done.



  • Archery is punishing scorewise, and is frustrating to hit things when lag kicks in (not to mention arrows are easy to dodge), so they are fine. The only Archer weapon I really care for is the heavy Xbow, since it is hard to dodge and one shots the smaller guys. The bows are too easy to dodge most of the time.

    The shortbow, in particular, needs work. I don’t know what, but for a weapon that is so poor at damage, it needs more mobility or speed to make up for it. Fixing assists would go a long way as well, since going shortbow means you aren’t going to be getting many kills.



  • @Amuffinattack:

    All classes need tweeking and fixing. This game still needs tons of balancing. Give them time, they are a small team with a lot of demands. And as far as I can tell they are still new to making actual games so give them some slack.

    Depending on your definition of slack is I can agree with this. I think it’s important, however, to make balance issues known or at least discuss them.

    @stickytape:

    I really only play pub games, but most of the archers I see struggle to stay near the top of the list, and mostly wind up in the middle or the bottom of the team. Admittedly, this isn’t an entirely fair way to judge a class, as archers aren’t likely to spend as much time as some other classes on objectives, and they’re prone to racking up a lot of assists rather than kills (depending on play style), but still, for various they tend not to get nearly as many kills and/or points as the heavier classes or the occasional MAA. So I don’t think people are choosing the archer because they’re so imbalanced or easy to play.

    Honestly, I think people play archer because it’s fun. Nobody bats an eyelash when 9 out of 12 guys on a team are vanguards - often with the exact same loadout, too. I agree that there is often such a thing as “too many archers”, but you can’t seem to get people to agree on whether this is a good thing for a team or a bad thing.

    I think that it’s a dangerous avenue you are approaching the subject on, in my opinion. I think balancing should consider all facets of what a class does and not just whether they top the kill or points charts. The points don’t really do anything anyway.

    @Heinrich:

    I think if you look at the damage/speed/reach relationship between archery and melee you find the problem. If you balanced a bow out like a melee weapon in terms of these 3 properties you’d get-
    1.Your arrows would go 10 feet
    or
    2.Arrows would damage like kicks
    or
    3.You’d fire about 1 arrow every 30 seconds
    Really though, I don’t think the crossbow is even that unbalanced given the reload time and vulnerability.

    The amount of reach completely unbalances the dps+reach in relation to melee weapons.
    Archers have lower health(health+armor) clearly, but proportionally not really much less than the maa. They’d have to be getting 1 shot by kicks for it to be balanced.

    As a knight you can either choose between a shield to get close to archers, or ranged weapon to throw at archers you cannot catch because when you get close enough to them they run away. The only real counter archer? Other archers, but more specifically javelins. Now you need more archers to counter the archers! Le Sigh.

    Well said. This commentary considers pertinent perspectives.



  • You should be able to throw your bow when your ammo runs out. :)


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