Shield question



  • what is exact recovery time shield affect? if shield stat says 50% recovery reduction what does it mean? and also how do they affect stamina?



  • Recovery is how long it takes the shield to drop after you release the block button, before you’re able to attack. Larger shields require less stamina to block attacks. So small shields are stronger offensively because they can make faster counterattacks, and large shields are stronger defensively because they can block more attacks.

    This only applies to the upcoming patch, however. Right now there’s a strange quirk that allows you to attack immediately with your shield in the block position. After the next patch you’ll have to properly drop your shield to attack.



  • So, the shield is getting nerfed? Why? Have somebody noticed that people who use them dominate on the battlefield? Quite the contrary – almost nobody use shield. Good players prefer dumb two-handed weapons. Proof? Check recent ESL fights ( http://en.twitch.tv/lgheightofabsurdity … broadcasts ). Virtually nobody use shields but noobs. And the shield is getting nerfed? WTF?

    Actually, in real life you can attack with half-blocking shield. Move shield two inches to the left and you got a space for your attacking hand.


  • Global Moderator

    @UnrealQW:

    So, the shield is getting nerfed? Why? Have somebody noticed that people who use them dominate on the battlefield? Quite the contrary – almost nobody use shield. Good players prefer dumb two-handed weapons. Proof? Check recent ESL fights ( http://en.twitch.tv/lgheightofabsurdity … broadcasts ). Virtually nobody use shields but noobs. And the shield is getting nerfed? WTF?

    Actually, in real life you can attack with half-blocking shield. Move shield two inches to the left and you got a space for your attacking hand.

    Its actually a glitch at the moment. You can attack without lowering your sheild. It wasnt supposed to be that way.



  • @UnrealQW:

    So, the shield is getting nerfed? Why? Have somebody noticed that people who use them dominate on the battlefield? Quite the contrary – almost nobody use shield. Good players prefer dumb two-handed weapons. Proof? Check recent ESL fights ( http://en.twitch.tv/lgheightofabsurdity … broadcasts ). Virtually nobody use shields but noobs. And the shield is getting nerfed? WTF?

    Actually, in real life you can attack with half-blocking shield. Move shield two inches to the left and you got a space for your attacking hand.

    What I see here is RK vs. RK in the finals. Martin is the leader of RK and he’s the biggest proponent of nerfing shields. So, your argument sortof crumbles in on itself there.



  • @SlyGoat:

    @UnrealQW:

    So, the shield is getting nerfed? Why? Have somebody noticed that people who use them dominate on the battlefield? Quite the contrary – almost nobody use shield. Good players prefer dumb two-handed weapons. Proof? Check recent ESL fights ( http://en.twitch.tv/lgheightofabsurdity … broadcasts ). Virtually nobody use shields but noobs. And the shield is getting nerfed? WTF?

    Actually, in real life you can attack with half-blocking shield. Move shield two inches to the left and you got a space for your attacking hand.

    What I see here is RK vs. RK in the finals. Martin is the leader of RK and he’s the biggest proponent of nerfing shields. So, your argument sortof crumbles in on itself there.

    That’s kind of beside the point. Anyone who uses a shield and drops it first, then attacks is going to have a really tough time beating an opponent who is at all aggressive. Tower shield would be absolutely useless in actual combat (its primary use is arrow blocking right now anyway) and the rest of the shields would be similarly affected. The only reason people dislike playing against shields is because it counters easy feinting. The difficult of properly blocking with a shield, especially in first person, would have no corresponding advantage with this “bugfix” nerf.

    Whether or not it’s intended behavior, it’s bad. Shields do not need a nerf at all and the real bugfix that should be coming out is the invisible extension at the bottom that blocks all melee hits and sometimes projectiles (seeing arrows stuck in nothing right over the guy’s shin for example).



  • Simple reason why we don’t use shields - none of us like them, none of us like fighting against them. It’s sort of become an unwritten, unspoken rule to not use them the majority of the time. Shields just really aren’t us; each clan has a bunch of weapons they like to use, and for us none of those weapons include a shield (you don’t have to be an archer to complain archers are OP, you can be anything essentially, is what I’m saying here - oh and I’m not actually of the opinion archers are OP, just one particular setup). There are plenty of viable weapons for competitive games that we don’t employ simply because it’s not our thing - I don’t think we touch any Spear or Polearm with the exception of the Halberd for example. Is the Halberd overpowered currently? Probably, but the Brandistock is still a viable alternative, it’s just the Halberd offers that versatility that the Vanguards like, and the upcoming nerf won’t change the usage of it for us.

    As for shields themselves, you can pick up a shield and play with it exactly like you would play with a normal weapon parrying if you wanted to. The difference between Shields and Parries right now is that shields can be held, eliminating the downside parry has and the advantages of feints (and lets face it, feinting is a major part of gameplay). Shields, right now, can do everything parry does exactly, and more.

    Shields were supposed to trade a lot more defensive capability in exchange for less offensive capability, this is why a shield down time was implemented and it serves (or rather, should serve) two purposes.

    1. Increase the length of time it takes to successfully perform a counter upon blocking.

    2. Act as a factor in differentiating shields. Lighter shields are much quicker at countering than heavy shields, consequently, a heavy shield can block more attacks before running out of stamina. This also keeps the MAA a fast attacking class, and the Knight a slower attacking class (in comparison).

    However, we have a problem which means everything that should differentiate shields from parries or even themselves, doesn’t actually work - a bug allows you to ignore the shield down time completely. If you attack with your shield held up, you would counter-attack as fast as a normal parry counter-attack (not the speed of the animation itself, the length between the point of blocking and starting the windup) - this, among one or two other slight things, is what makes Shields overpowered, particularly the Knight’s shields, because they can directly act as an upgrade to parry itself, rather than something that works differently, and without factoring in the shield down time in the majority of fights, shields like the Buckler and Heater are less desirable (if you’re going to use a shield, you may as well use it on a Knight right now).

    Maybe we have to look at heavier weapons taking a bit more Stamina on shields too or kicks having more advantages over people trying to turtle behind shields, but I’d really like to see how things pan out with the shield bug/s fixed first.



  • I’m not a competitive player so you will likely dismiss my opinion immediately Martin, but nowhere do you mention that a shield user loses a very large amount of vision while blocking. This is especially brutal against polearm stabs because a Vanguard can disappear from your view entirely while blocking a stab with a buckler.

    That is a huge disadvantage against a parry. In fact I believe it makes it prohibitive for the buckler users to close the distance when they need to against those Vanguard without just guessing which way to move (a good way to get hit from the side).

    I don’t get your logic that says when someone wacks my shield they should be able to pull back (especially with a polearm) and hit me again before I can swing with my non-blocking arm. That’s not how physics works…the shield makes them take the force back in their arm if used to block as well as causing a reflection of the weapon that should make the drawback again more random. Someone who hits a shield should be looking to parry immediately…not swinging again as fast as they can.

    As you point out, MAA shields, javelin buckler, and Knight shields should not be lumped together in discussion. Currently heater style play with MAA is pretty worthless other than against a lone archer. Buckler is doable but not necessarily worthwhile without several archers trying to hit you. Go play on some pubs, no one uses them on pub servers on MAA either. Knights rarely use them but are more likely. It isn’t some unwritten agreement among the best players…it is really that only newbies experiment with them on any class but knight.



  • Its good that this bug is being fixed, however, I’ve never had a problem fighting against someone who is using a shield.

    I find shield block to be weaker then parry and i find it easy to exhaust people’s stamina in duels when they are using a shield.



  • People increase their FOVs to negate the shields blocking views, and the Kite shield barely covers any of the screen with 120 fov. In public play, some Tower shield users will use third person. For the ‘default’ player, I agree that shields covering view can be considered a factor in comparison to parries, but because so many shield-advocates avoid it, it’s hard to just say, lets ‘nerf’ Kite shield view and ‘buff’ Tower shield view for example, because it will probably change very little.



  • @Misnomer: You aren’t supposed to hold your shield up 24/7. You’re still supposed to block reactively. That’s why they block your vision. If you’re just always shielding up, you’ll run out of stamina quickly as it does not regenerate while shield is up, and you’ll blind yourself in a way the enemy can take advantage of. A smart shield user who doesn’t always hold his block is really frustrating to play against because you will just about never get around their block without some seriously risky stuff (risky because they can, at any time, start an attack on you without dropping their shield, while you’re moving into a very bad position in order to hopefully bypass their block).

    @Martin: You actually missed one big factor with shields - they don’t deflect for as long as parries. They only deflect for about half the time (I don’t know how long exactly, but it feels about half), so it is a valid concern that the tower shield in particular might not be able to counterattack against some quick weapons after blocking them without being hit first.

    To solve this I would like to propose giving shields the ability to parry and counter by attacking while your shield is held up; it would be a sort of shield slap like the buckler’s current shield bash (change buckler shield bash to a shove like other shields use). If you time it properly (it’ll have a shorter window than a normal parry, for the sake of balance) you’ll deflect the enemy’s attack and start your own attack immediately; if you don’t, you lose stamina and suffer a recovery period.

    I think the ability to counterattack is an intrinsic and important part of playing with a shield, but the instant attack at any time is broken in situations where you aren’t counterattacking. It creates an area in front of you where the enemy is open to attack but you aren’t, at all times. The enemy will have to bypass your block by going around you, which leaves them very vulnerable to aggression on your part - up close like that it’s very easy to be feinted and then combo feint spammed to death.



  • @Martin:

    People increase their FOVs to negate the shields blocking views, and the Kite shield barely covers any of the screen with 120 fov. In public play, some Tower shield users will use third person. For the ‘default’ player, I agree that shields covering view can be considered a factor in comparison to parries, but because so many shield-advocates avoid it, it’s hard to just say, lets ‘nerf’ Kite shield view and ‘buff’ Tower shield view for example, because it will probably change very little.

    I guess that is true. I didn’t know FOV was changeable in this game. I guess that makes sense, though a slider would make it a bit more fair. Third person also completely undermine the balancing factor of the tower shield blocking off your entire left vision (or in from of you while blocking).

    And yes Slygoat, I know you are supposed to lower a shield. But, if I block and am supposed to be hitting quickly to take advantage, the changing position of the person in from of me is a mystery compared to a parry. That increases the chances of missing especially since the first reaction of a blocked Vanguard is to retreat. Blocked MAA or Knight is just going to hit me again while I try to attack. If I am a Knight…I absorb the blow…as MAA might die depending on the weapon before I land a hit.

    So nerf the knight shields if need be, but the buckler and heater are pretty near worthless against anything but archers right now.



  • @Misnomer:

    I guess that is true. I didn’t know FOV was changeable in this game. I guess that makes sense, though a slider would make it a bit more fair. Third person also completely undermine the balancing factor of the tower shield blocking off your entire left vision (or in from of you while blocking).

    There is a slider, in video options.

    @Misnomer:

    And yes Slygoat, I know you are supposed to lower a shield. But, if I block and am supposed to be hitting quickly to take advantage, the changing position of the person in from of me is a mystery compared to a parry. That increases the chances of missing especially since the first reaction of a blocked Vanguard is to retreat. Blocked MAA or Knight is just going to hit me again while I try to attack. If I am a Knight…I absorb the blow…as MAA might die depending on the weapon before I land a hit.

    So nerf the knight shields if need be, but the buckler and heater are pretty near worthless against anything but archers right now.

    The second half of this paragraph would’ve been my answer to the first ;) I would apply the same logic to projectiles - you’re firing at where you think the enemy will be a split second from now, and that works just as well for melee. You can start sprinting forward as soon as you put your shield up, move into the attack, and drop it as soon as you hear the “thunk” - now you have a clear view and can throw your attack properly. If you don’t hear the thunk you can look down to see what they’re doing over the top of your shield. Against stabs and slashes, vertical aim of your attack doesn’t matter (unless they’re stabbing down at facehug range, but at facehug range your response should always be a shield bash), and against an overhead you’ll see their weapon over your shield and know if they feinted or not.

    It’s really not as if you’re putting on a blindfold when you raise your shield. Even the tower shield has a fairly significant area over the top where you can peek at your enemy. And as to nerfing knight shields but not the heater/buckler - that’s exactly what this fix does. The heater and buckler both have pretty quick drop times compared to the kite and especially tower shield, thus the MaA shields will be stronger offensively relative to their knight counterparts, whereas right now knight shields are just superior in all areas that matter to an experienced player (and the heater is superior in all areas to the buckler even in the amount of screen area it blocks, because it’s held further from your face).



  • Fair enough, apparently I have missed that slider. My bad.

    You are likely right about the other stuff too, that there are ways to make up for the visibility…but that is still more effort than…well no effort to see that way with the parry. Without third person you also can’t learn too well with the shield about how someone got around you. You can immediately see how you lost when your parry fails.

    It is possible to play well with shields, but you haven’t shown me why without the bug that allows attacking at the same time as the shield is up (which admittedly I didn’t know about and didn’t use) I should pick shield over throwing knives or flame pot.

    I completely missed a slider, maybe I am missing some advantage you get with a shield. Though this is clearly an academic discussion because the coming patch may change it all anyway. I just generally feel that shields should play more of a role in the game, maybe that can’t happen without a breaking mechanic, but it seems absurd that a medieval soldier would choose to take a short range single handed weapon into a nearby skirmishing battle when they have 2hand or shield choices. It is counter intuitive.



  • I wonder what will happen to knight’s shield after the patch.

    From my experience it’s really tricky to kill someone with a Tower Shield and Sword of War or Morning Star but it’s doable and even quite viable against multiple enemies. I see a plenty of knights using two handed weapons, some people use Kite Shield. Tower Shield is used extremely rarely. Some two handers even employ shields only to have them on their back for more cover from behind against arrows.

    I hope patch won’t throw shields away due to increased time to counter-attack after blocking against some weapons or we’ll simply see much more knights with two handers who’ll then have problem with archers being able to hit them.

    […] (unless they’re stabbing down at facehug range, but at facehug range your response should always be a shield bash),[…]

    It’s extremely risky due to how slow shield bash and how close you have to be.



  • @Holy.Death:

    I hope patch won’t throw shields away due to increased time to counter-attack after blocking against some weapons or we’ll simply see much more knights with two handers who’ll then have problem with archers being able to hit them.

    Especially because this is just downright counter intuitive. Isn’t the point of a small shield at least that I can have my weapon raised or ready at the same time as blocking with my off hand? Compare with a parry where I would either have to drawn my weapon after and then strike or make a quick thrust giving up most mechanical advantage. Of course there would be a disadvantage likely from turning your body, but since there is no attacking in with body turned and arm extended in this game anyway I think that should be ignored.



  • @SlyGoat:

    @Martin: You actually missed one big factor with shields - they don’t deflect for as long as parries. They only deflect for about half the time (I don’t know how long exactly, but it feels about half), so it is a valid concern that the tower shield in particular might not be able to counterattack against some quick weapons after blocking them without being hit first.

    A lot of people don’t take this mechanic into play when they bring up nerfing shields. As it stands the added downtime you give another player after a successful parry is a big deal in combat, after blocking with shield, good players do manage to get off a quick lookdown overhand and are rewarded with a hit trade or even a flinch.

    @SlyGoat:

    To solve this I would like to propose giving shields the ability to parry and counter by attacking while your shield is held up; it would be a sort of shield slap like the buckler’s current shield bash (change buckler shield bash to a shove like other shields use). If you time it properly (it’ll have a shorter window than a normal parry, for the sake of balance) you’ll deflect the enemy’s attack and start your own attack immediately; if you don’t, you lose stamina and suffer a recovery period.

    I think we need something like this in the game, a counterattack/high risk high reward parry, and I think kick/shield bash with some tweaks could fulfill this roll.



  • @Phalanx:

    @SlyGoat:

    @Martin: You actually missed one big factor with shields - they don’t deflect for as long as parries. They only deflect for about half the time (I don’t know how long exactly, but it feels about half), so it is a valid concern that the tower shield in particular might not be able to counterattack against some quick weapons after blocking them without being hit first.

    A lot of people don’t take this mechanic into play when they bring up nerfing shields. As it stands the added downtime you give another player after a successful parry is a big deal in combat, after blocking with shield, good players do manage to get off a quick lookdown overhand and are rewarded with a hit trade or even a flinch.

    @SlyGoat:

    To solve this I would like to propose giving shields the ability to parry and counter by attacking while your shield is held up; it would be a sort of shield slap like the buckler’s current shield bash (change buckler shield bash to a shove like other shields use). If you time it properly (it’ll have a shorter window than a normal parry, for the sake of balance) you’ll deflect the enemy’s attack and start your own attack immediately; if you don’t, you lose stamina and suffer a recovery period.

    I think we need something like this in the game, a counterattack/high risk high reward parry, and I think kick/shield bash with some tweaks could fulfill this roll.

    I gotta agree here - i often use MaA with heater or knight with kite, and the enemy’s recovery time is a lot shorter than recovering from your own block - which is exactly what the shield should counter, besides arrows.



  • You actually missed one big factor with shields - they don’t deflect for as long as parries. They only deflect for about half the time (I don’t know how long exactly, but it feels about half), so it is a valid concern that the tower shield in particular might not be able to counterattack against some quick weapons after blocking them without being hit first.

    This is my concern as well - right now it seems that the ability to fast counter-attack with a weapon is better (in terms of speed, as well as weapon’s range and damage dealt) than the ability to block for a long time as a knight. Knight can use feints to force enemy into a missparry, but if enemy knows you’re going to feint and will focus on attacking (like some vanguards do) or when you can’t attack quicker than the enemy (you have to lower your shield to attack) then the whole purpose of having shields is lost. Buckler seems to be added for knights using flail (I hope you can combine it with some short, fast weapons) and perhaps this can be a solution.